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Post by Batflunkie on Jan 31, 2016 19:13:49 GMT -5
Since my initial post in the introduction thread, I'm made no bones about the fact that I feel disillusioned towards a "certain valiant centric web forum" who's only interests seem to be market speculation and the firm belief that under it's current leadership, Valiant can do no wrong as a comic publisher. While I do think that they're a great company who clearly show how "capebooks" can be done correctly, they're not entirely without fault.
X-O, under Vendetti's tenure, has been mundane since the end of the Planet Death early on in the books run, Shadowman faired even worse under Milligan's takeover from #13 onwards (which is a shame considering how well the book blended together joint aspects from both the Bob Hall and Garth Ennis runs). Reading Eternal Warrior has been like the South Park episode "The China Probrem" the 12th season and for a while, it only felt that it was churned out for the sake of introducing 4001 A.D. and Rai (Vendetti's "Wrath Of The Eternal Warrior" doesn't look much better either). Even Bloodshot was daisy-chained to Dsyart's less than adequate portrayal of Harbinger's Renegades until #14
Overall, Valiant has felt completely directionless and for the most part just seem to be churning out whatever they want with lack of proper consideration or quality control. IDK, I love the company and I love the characters and just want to see them succeed. All this lack of a grand plan for the universe just seems a waste of talent and the legacy of the brand.
That being said, after four part mini-series The Valiant came out, they've been doing better; but I still think that they have a long way to go
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2016 19:19:08 GMT -5
I read Harbinger and X-O when they launched in 2012 and was underwhelmed, dropped both by the 4th issue. I really like Cary Nord's work, but X-O didn't feel like his best work and yet the art still very much overwhelmed the writing for me, so I let it go. I picked up the first Archer & Armstrong trade on the cheap at a con and really liked it though, just have never gotten around to getting any more.
Based on the creators, I picked up the Valiant trade (the 4-issue mini the OP mentioned) and quite liked it, but still didn't do enough to overwhelm the blahness I had for a first impression, so I haven't sampled any more stuff since.
I would likely pick up stuff on the cheap as I saw it at cons, but not interested enough to follow any of them or keep current with the line.
-M
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Post by Batflunkie on Jan 31, 2016 19:21:26 GMT -5
Bloodshot Reborn, Ninjak, and Rai are the only titles that I bother keeping up with
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Jan 31, 2016 19:57:31 GMT -5
I really enjoyed pretty much all of the new Valiant properties, but I won't spend $5 a month on a comic unless it's positively blowing me away. For a while, Harbinger and X-O Manowar were, but, while i respect Valiant's openness to sweeping change, I think both properties ultimately found themselves in ruts, and thus I stopped reading. I am pulling the new Faith series, though I've yet to pick up and read #1.
Nothing the new Valiant has done has rubbed me the wrong way, but I don't feel an overwhelming urge to keep up with it either.
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 1, 2016 1:05:15 GMT -5
I'm a little behind as I pick up the issues on sale on Comixology, but, I'm now reading and re-reading v3.0 of X-O now. I'm in the late 20's now and have really enjoyed the series.
Like Shax, I no longer pay full retail unless it's something I can't live without. Also, I've liked what I've read and feel they've done a good job.
I do agree with batflunkie and mrp in that it needs some pizzazz to give it more sizzle, but, I really like what I've read. Very impressive talent both writing and on art as well.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Feb 1, 2016 9:29:01 GMT -5
I got a big bunch of their books in a Groupees bundle late last year. The XO books were underwhelming, but I liked Shadowman, Ninjak, and ummm...something else. Never really got into Harbinger, don't like Quantum and Woody, and Eternal Warrior is hit or miss for me. Some of the art teams are a bit Dynamite style for my taste, B Grade that is, and it pulls me out of the story.
The other thing was the files you download from Groupees don't always work well with the cbr viewer I use(ComicRack), and I usually have to unpack and re-zip them to get them to function which is a huge piss-off.
Theyre a line I WANT to like, I want to try, and support, work from Independent publishers like Valiant, Dark Horse etc
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 1, 2016 10:56:51 GMT -5
For what it's worth, with two films already in the works, Valiant is a property that's going to be around for a while. Hopefully, if they see a surge in sales after the films hit theaters, that will give them the resources to attract higher tier talent and a desire to make their books accessible to a wider audience. Really, this could end up making OR breaking them.
One way or another, they are a company to watch right now
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Post by Batflunkie on Feb 1, 2016 11:07:31 GMT -5
For what it's worth, with two films already in the works, Valiant is a property that's going to be around for a while. Hopefully, if they see a surge in sales after the films hit theaters, that will give them the resources to attract higher tier talent and a desire to make their books accessible to a wider audience. Really, this could end up making OR breaking them. Valiant is co-owned by a chinese conglomerate with an interest in turning Valiant's characters into multi-media properties, so they're not going anywhere anytime soon  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2016 11:39:14 GMT -5
For what it's worth, with two films already in the works, Valiant is a property that's going to be around for a while. Hopefully, if they see a surge in sales after the films hit theaters, that will give them the resources to attract higher tier talent and a desire to make their books accessible to a wider audience. Really, this could end up making OR breaking them. One way or another, they are a company to watch right now What they really need to be wary of is that Valiant has zero recognition beyond the hardcore comic audience and if not marketed properly they will come across as cheap knockoffs trying to cash in on the success of Marvel and DC movies in the eye of the general public (kind of how movies like Hancock got viewed) or as mindless action/sci-fi flicks that its better to wait for video/Netflix on. If the movies bomb or get bad pre-release perception b mass audiences, it will really put a low ceiling on their growth potential. There is a lot of power in the branding in the mass audience that the concept/genre doesn't have free of the brand, and the Valiant name has none of the brand recognition, so even if they are superior films, there may not be audiences flocking to them. Box office success right now is more about branding and public perception of the property than about the quality of the property or the movies themselves. They will have to spend a lot on marketing and a lot of film quality to win over audiences, but that simply raises the bar as to how much they have to take in to be viewed as a success to the studios who will decide the future of the franchise. Kung Fu Panda took in $41 million in its opening weekend this past weekend-a sequel in a successful franchise with brand recognition-which meant marketing could be reasonably affordable, and its animated so production budget was manageable, so $41 mill is a good opening weekend as for most non-blockbuster films, opening weekend represents about 40-50% of your revenue from theatrical release, so it's on target to make about $100 mill or so domestically. If you have to spend $40 million to market a new franchise, and $100+ million on production of the movie itself, $100 million domestic revenue is not even going to be break even for the movie, so they're going to have to find the right balance between cost and expected revenue on an unknown property. It's potentially high reward, but it's definitely high risk. And then the question is, even if the movies succeed, so what? Where's Valiant's presence in the mass market. They move 10K units of their best books in the direct market-which pretty much means retailers are ordering enough copies for pulls and to sell out in 1 week on the shelf so someone walking in to a comic shop off the street (as unlikely as that is) is still going to have a hard time finding a Valiant comic. Don't expect the retailers to risk their capital to stock it on the chance someone might want it because of the movie-there's too much product eating up too much of their resources just to keep up with pulls, shelf copies and variants for their customer base for them to invest in a high risk low return venture like that. So, even in the unlikely even the movies inspire customers to seek out the comics (which hasn't really happened with Marvel, DC, or even a lot of the indy produced films like Ghost World, etc. so that's not likely), where are the going to find copies of them? Digital-maybe? Trades on Amazon-maybe? But really there is no market presence for them to even capitalize on the success of the movies if (and that's a big IF) they are successful and pique the interest in the books. So the movies sound like a great idea, but does the publisher have the infrastructure and market presence in place to capitalize onthat move? Nothing I have seen says yes. -M |
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 1, 2016 20:49:23 GMT -5
Valiant is putting out comics with heart and don't have corporate owners, at least yet.
I think the comics themselves are very good and see the marketing to be the issue.
With more and more readers disgruntled with Marvel and DC, I think Valiant gains ground with the superhero genre.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 1, 2016 20:56:25 GMT -5
And then the question is, even if the movies succeed, so what? Where's Valiant's presence in the mass market. They move 10K units of their best books in the direct market-which pretty much means retailers are ordering enough copies for pulls and to sell out in 1 week on the shelf so someone walking in to a comic shop off the street (as unlikely as that is) is still going to have a hard time finding a Valiant comic. Don't expect the retailers to risk their capital to stock it on the chance someone might want it because of the movie-there's too much product eating up too much of their resources just to keep up with pulls, shelf copies and variants for their customer base for them to invest in a high risk low return venture like that. So, even in the unlikely even the movies inspire customers to seek out the comics (which hasn't really happened with Marvel, DC, or even a lot of the indy produced films like Ghost World, etc. so that's not likely), where are the going to find copies of them? Digital-maybe? Trades on Amazon-maybe? But really there is no market presence for them to even capitalize on the success of the movies if (and that's a big IF) they are successful and pique the interest in the books. I would think the common sense solution would be to have some new inexpensive trades hit shelves right around the time of the film (maybe a month after so that folks have time to preorder it), or maybe some reprints of the first issues (like Dark Horse's #1 for $1 promotion a few years back). |
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 1, 2016 21:05:25 GMT -5
Valiant does that with $ 1 issues.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 1, 2016 21:08:57 GMT -5
Valiant does that with $ 1 issues. Good! Then it sounds like they'll know what to do to further reach out to new readers when the films roll along. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2016 21:37:32 GMT -5
I like the new Valiant but like shaxper I feel underwhelmed by the titles. I don't feel blown away enough to continue them as monthlies.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 8:52:02 GMT -5
Valiant does that with $ 1 issues. Good! Then it sounds like they'll know what to do to further reach out to new readers when the films roll along. Yeah, it's not if you build it, they will come-the shop I helped out with ordered 10 copies of each of the $1 Valiant offerings, a year and a half later they averaged having 8 copies of each still in stock without having reordered. They had sold out of most of the Image and Dark Horse ones (and were doing well with the DC ones too). They had copies of it near the register and with the new comics shelf. Didn't matter. Another shop in the area orders 50 copies of every $1 sampler that comes out form every publisher. They regularly reorder the Dark Horse and Image ones when thy can, after 2+ years now, they still have over half the copies of their initial order on most Valiant books. AS for the trades, even if they are out, will people know where to get them, or how to order them if they want them-where's the infrastructure and means to get the message out. Even if Marvel and DC comics are not in the general marketplace, products (especially kid's books) featuring there characters are ubiquitous there. There's some infrastructure there and product to capitalize on the movie and tv gains (just not comics)-so Disney and WB know how to capitalize on the movie and tv success even if their comic publishing division does not. As for people being disgruntled and switching to Valiant for their quality as hondobrode seems to think will happen...nice idea if quality was ever a driving force in direct market super-hero comic buying patterns. People buy mostly out of brand or character loyalty or at least recognition. Very few love comics as a medium more than they love comics featuring the characters they love. If they leave those character's comics, they are not very likely to seek a substitute in other character's comics to keep buying comics, they will switch to things featuring their favorite character s in other mediums to replace the comics altogether. Marvel and DC are #1 and #2 not because they produce quality comics, but because people are loyal to the characters and brands. If they alienate their customers, comics as a whole will lose customers, not just the big 2. More disgruntled readers will leave comics altogether than will switch to other things because the reigning perception paradigm is that comics=big2 super-heroes and if I don't like big2 super-heroes anymore, I don't like comics anymore. It's not an accurate perception, but it is the majority perception. The attitude here may skew a little differently, but even here we see that paradigm present among some of our members. And we are hardly representative of the comics community as a whole in our embrace of the variety within comicdom. In 15 years or so of big time super-hero movies, we have seen very little impact from those movies on direct market sales. If Valiant expects the movies to bump direct market sales and does nothing to move beyond the direct market to capitalize on the movies success, they will miss the boat. The direct market barely notices them right now. The few fans they have are vocal and devoted, but their proselytizing is not winning many converts in appreciable numbers. There have been bumps/spikes of interest, but they haven't had sustained growth. They need a bigger pop culture imprint to capitalize on success in another medium, and that's if their efforts in another medium can succeed without that pop culture footprint existing to fuel the success. I hope they do well, I don't see the pieces in place t enable the type of success they are hoping for. Hope only works if the work to make it happens is done. Just hoping it will change won't affect change. What are they doing to increase their cultural imprint beyond making the movies? Movies aren't a magic wand to success in and of themselves. What are they doing to increase the chances that the movies can translate into the kind of success they are hoping for? Their parent company must have vast resources to fund the movies and such, but their vision seems short sighted if their focus is solely on the tiny pool that is the direct market when there are whole oceans of possibility out there to build their brand and give the movies the foundation they would need to succeed with a mass audience. Bottom line is that they need to build for the success of the movies to happen, not wait for the movies and hope it provides a foundation to build form, because if they wait until the movies come out, they have already lost their opportunity to capitalize on them -M |
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