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Post by berkley on Nov 27, 2014 22:20:32 GMT -5
I thought Final Crisis was an interesting experiment. Some things worked, somethings didn't, but I like the fact that Morrison was trying to do something different. And he was badly let down by DC editorial, which messed up the lead-in to FC by publishing things like Starlin's truly abysmal Death of the New Gods.
Based on promotional interviews I had thought the New Gods were going to play a large role, and that was the main thing I was interested in, but as it turned out, they were all killed off before it even started, and it ended up as another JLA/Superman/Batman story, which is exactly what I didn't want to read. So I'm not really a fair judge.
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Post by badwolf on Nov 28, 2014 9:54:45 GMT -5
I liked Final Crisis. It was somewhat confusing, but it felt like it had real drama and weight, which is rare. I'd like to read it again sometime as a book rather than in monthly installments.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 10:14:47 GMT -5
DC's use of the word "Crisis" (at least in the relatively modern era from 1980s onwards) has become a red flag for me. They might as well call it "Infinite/Final/Countdown Avoid at all costs for the sake of your sanity on Infinite Earths/Multiverses" - they've all been horrific train wrecks.
Marvel have produced some terrible cross-overs over the years (Secret Wars 1 & 2, and the current godawful Axis, for example), but they never seem to reach the height of sheer incompetence, terrible execution and disastrous downstream consequences* that DC do
(* by which I don't mean things like "Supergirl is dead! dead! dead!" but the way they break their continuity so badly they can't make it fit and spend years writing sticking-plaster stories to try to cover up the worst problems until the next botched continuity-reboot)
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Post by foxley on Nov 28, 2014 16:37:50 GMT -5
*Shrugs*
I didn't particularly enjoy Final Crisis, but I'll take it over Civil War any day.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Nov 28, 2014 19:18:18 GMT -5
As a reader who was here for Contest of Champions, Secret Wars, and CRISIS etc at the beginning, I believe that a lot of the current "events" are better. All those X-Men stories in the 80s and 90s were fairly attrocious, and the Annual events were universally incompetant. I liked Civil War, in fact I think that 2 philosophically opposed groups of heroes fighting like this was bound to happen. Its not like we dont fight in real life over even more trivial things than government approval. By the way arent stories like Avengers vs Defenders just as stupid or even moreso. The groups dont even have the excuse of government intervention and moral disagreement to fall back on. We have accepted the stereotypical hero vs hero first meeting fight for decades, but rail against a story specifically built around it.
I believe we excuse Secret Wars etc because they were written in an era where the scripting wasnt as mature as what we are used to today. It wasnt still at the juvenile level of the early 70s, it was growing up fast, but it wasnt there yet. However we have no mercy for the current writers. If they dont give us the same rehashed characters again and again we vilify them. how does the industry grow in an atmosphere of stagnation ?
The current events (for me) hover between ok and awful, with the occassional excellent like Civil War or World War Hulk. None of the DC weekly series (52, countdown, batman, earth 2) have worked for me, being drawn out, confusing, and just plain boring. I liked the idea of Secret Invasion, but disliked Siege. Liked Fear Itself, even though it was stupid, but am disliking Axis. Enjoyed Final Crisis and Identity Crisis, who cares about Sue and Iris, 2 bit part characters who finally escaped their 2 dimensional hell.
I dont get too precious about most of these characters, so dont mind them changing a costume, or even swapping the person under the mask occassionally. I think its more positive than trying to hold onto Peter Parker being in school for 50 years. God, Marvel NEED to reboot their universe. They should have done that when they introduced the Ultimate Universe, THAT would have been a good canonical change.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 19:46:13 GMT -5
As a reader who was here for Contest of Champions, Secret Wars, and CRISIS etc at the beginning, I believe that a lot of the current "events" are better. All those X-Men stories in the 80s and 90s were fairly attrocious, and the Annual events were universally incompetant. I liked Civil War, in fact I think that 2 philosophically opposed groups of heroes fighting like this was bound to happen. Its not like we dont fight in real life over even more trivial things than government approval. By the way arent stories like Avengers vs Defenders just as stupid or even moreso. The groups dont even have the excuse of government intervention and moral disagreement to fall back on. We have accepted the stereotypical hero vs hero first meeting fight for decades, but rail against a story specifically built around it. I believe we excuse Secret Wars etc because they were written in an era where the scripting wasnt as mature as what we are used to today. It wasnt still at the juvenile level of the early 70s, it was growing up fast, but it wasnt there yet. However we have no mercy for the current writers. If they dont give us the same rehashed characters again and again we vilify them. how does the industry grow in an atmosphere of stagnation ? The current events (for me) hover between ok and awful, with the occassional excellent like Civil War or World War Hulk. None of the DC weekly series (52, countdown, batman, earth 2) have worked for me, being drawn out, confusing, and just plain boring. I liked the idea of Secret Invasion, but disliked Siege. Liked Fear Itself, even though it was stupid, but am disliking Axis. Enjoyed Final Crisis and Identity Crisis, who cares about Sue and Iris, 2 bit part characters who finally escaped their 2 dimensional hell. I dont get too precious about most of these characters, so dont mind them changing a costume, or even swapping the person under the mask occassionally. I think its more positive than trying to hold onto Peter Parker being in school for 50 years. God, Marvel NEED to reboot their universe. They should have done that when they introduced the Ultimate Universe, THAT would have been a good canonical change. But, DAMMIT! I LOVE MY CHARACTERS. And I am one of those who will bitch and moan forever about changes. But I had to like your post because you do make sense. I don't have to like it, but yeah.
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Post by foxley on Nov 28, 2014 20:28:46 GMT -5
I rail against a lot of stuff in Civil War, but the heroes fighting each other isn't part of it. Pretty much everything beside the heroes fighting, in fact.
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Post by berkley on Nov 28, 2014 20:49:05 GMT -5
I don't have anything against the idea of an "event" if it comes from someone thinking they have a great idea for one, but by now it's become so market-driven that it all feels very mechanical. Besides, there's so many of them that none of them feel special. Almost everything is tied to some "Event" or other these days, or so it feels..
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Post by foxley on Nov 28, 2014 21:01:59 GMT -5
I miss the days of "done in one" or "done in two" stories. Have writers lost the ability to tell stories in anything less than 12 issue blocks?
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Post by Pól Rua on Nov 28, 2014 23:13:34 GMT -5
My main issue with 'events' is that if there's ALWAYS an 'Event' happening, then it's NOT an event. It's Wednesday. And if you're ALWAYS changing the status quo, then continuous change IS the status quo, and each change is pretty much meaningless.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Nov 28, 2014 23:27:22 GMT -5
My main issue with 'events' is that if there's ALWAYS an 'Event' happening, then it's NOT an event. It's Wednesday. And if you're ALWAYS changing the status quo, then continuous change IS the status quo, and each change is pretty much meaningless. I hear you on both points. Although I don't mind the events per se, I do believe they are coming too damn quickly, and therein lose their effectiveness. Just look at the push for Inhumanity, leading to the Inhumans push this year, which just got swallowed by Original Sin(there's another I loved) and Joe Maduiera's glacial pace. The other point that concerns me is...How does Earth 616 continue to exist ? The amount of cosmic and global disasters which befall it seemingly monthly defy the ability of our population, let alone the planet itself, to survive...surely. But as stories...I'll give most a go.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Nov 28, 2014 23:32:08 GMT -5
I should be crying about what they've done with Steve Rogers(but admittedly he is quite a...bland man...love the hero, but not the man under the mask so much), but I'm loving Falcon as Cap. I do get how it hurts when they screw with your favourites, but feel the new ride is worth giving it a shot...and then I can moan my ass off.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 29, 2014 13:40:33 GMT -5
I should be crying about what they've done with Steve Rogers(but admittedly he is quite a...bland man...love the hero, but not the man under the mask so much), but I'm loving Falcon as Cap. I do get how it hurts when they screw with your favourites, but feel the new ride is worth giving it a shot...and then I can moan my ass off. Yo pak, you have the right spirit. Enjoy the ride. Steve will be back eventually.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 29, 2014 14:39:29 GMT -5
I should be crying about what they've done with Steve Rogers(but admittedly he is quite a...bland man...love the hero, but not the man under the mask so much), but I'm loving Falcon as Cap. I do get how it hurts when they screw with your favourites, but feel the new ride is worth giving it a shot...and then I can moan my ass off. I find it interesting when people say that Steve Rogers is "bland", because I always found him to be fairly complex. From his origin as a scrawny, sickly guy who refused to give up his goal of serving and fighting for his country, to his reawakening in a world that was completely foreign to him, to his disillusionment with what his country had become at times but his desire to fight for what was right, and now, he is what he should be, which is an old man who can no longer physically fight the same fight but refuses to give up on doing what it right.
I'm reading the current Cap series, because I've always liked Sam and I think that having him as Captain America will be interesting because he has the same ideals as Steve while not the same life experience. Maybe Steve will be back, or maybe not (if they do some kind of reboot next year, I could see him not, as it looks like they may try to align the cinematic universe with the comics universe and Steve Rogers will probably not survive Cap 3), but I'm along for the ride the whole way, because I look at the symbol of Captain America as being one that stands for justice and not a flag or government despite the name.
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Post by badwolf on Nov 29, 2014 15:08:25 GMT -5
Maybe they meant "blond."
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