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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 5, 2016 8:12:41 GMT -5
I still follow all the issues involving Thanos and it seems that he is being written differently when It's not a Starlin story. Almost like a different person.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 5, 2016 8:25:51 GMT -5
Strange Tales #178-179
Not feeling The Magus storyline yet. I can see how so much of this was bold for mainstream comics of the mid 1970s, especially the idea of organized religions as the villain, but I'm not quite feeling Warlock himself. The Soul Gem is going to rescue him from every possible situation, so no conflict actually has any real tension to it. Yes, the Soul Gem has a mind of its own (I feel like Starlin was reading a lot of Michael Moorcock when he wrote this), so I suppose that will be a source of tension down the line.
I also don't get how Warlock and Magus are the same. That gets glossed over pretty quickly. Hasn't the Magus been around for centuries?
Finally, while Warlock's philosophy that all power structures corrupt is interesting, I have a hard time giving it much credit. What's the alternative he proposes? Running away from everyone like he seems to keep doing?
Trust me, I'm keeping an open mind and am ready for this to get better. There's nothing here that can't get better with a little more explanation. Just not feeling it yet.
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 5, 2016 10:11:47 GMT -5
I also don't get how Warlock and Magus are the same. That gets glossed over pretty quickly. Hasn't the Magus been around for centuries? Finally, while Warlock's philosophy that all power structures corrupt is interesting, I have a hard time giving it much credit. What's the alternative he proposes? Running away from everyone like he seems to keep doing? Wait for it. Without a leader, "rule yourselves" sounds like anarchy to me. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 5, 2016 11:34:43 GMT -5
I'm really enjoying reading everyone's comments in this thread. I have no knowledge of the Thanos saga really and I'm usually much more a fan of Marvel's street level stories, rather than their cosmic ones. So, I'm unlikely to have much to contribute, but i am really enjoying this.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 5, 2016 11:48:16 GMT -5
Wow! No one trusts a character whose stated goal is to kill every living thing the universe? Go figure. Heroes can be such a suspicious bunch. To me, Thanos is clearly a despicable villain at least through Infinity Gauntlet. Him teaming up with Warlock to fight Magus, was only because Magus was stronger than both of them, and Thanos didn't want that kind of threat to his existence But he really mellows out or gets tame, after that. Multiple times, teaming up with heroes to fight a common enemy. Or even trick into doing his dirty work. That is at least up until now. I don't know what they are doing with him presently. Jim Starlin came back for a trio of graphic novels in which the "real" Thanos wonders why he's been behaving so erratically over the past decades, doing silly things like invading Earth. In the last one, The Infinity Finale, he's back to what he should be doing these days : helping reshape the entire multiverse, playing politics on the highest level imaginable. (No, even higher than that!) I didn't care at all for Thanos from MtiO annual #2 to the Annihilation saga, but these three recent books were very enjoyable. The third one even manages to be as ground-shaking as the original story (or at least roughly in the same ball park. The freshness is gone, naturally, but the ambition remains). |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Aug 5, 2016 13:24:50 GMT -5
To me, Thanos is clearly a despicable villain at least through Infinity Gauntlet. Him teaming up with Warlock to fight Magus, was only because Magus was stronger than both of them, and Thanos didn't want that kind of threat to his existence But he really mellows out or gets tame, after that. Multiple times, teaming up with heroes to fight a common enemy. Or even trick into doing his dirty work. That is at least up until now. I don't know what they are doing with him presently. Jim Starlin came back for a trio of graphic novels in which the "real" Thanos wonders why he's been behaving so erratically over the past decades, doing silly things like invading Earth. In the last one, The Infinity Finale, he's back to what he should be doing these days : helping reshape the entire multiverse, playing politics on the highest level imaginable. (No, even higher than that!) I didn't care at all for Thanos from MtiO annual #2 to the Annihilation saga, but these three recent books were very enjoyable. The third one even manages to be as ground-shaking as the original story (or at least roughly in the same ball park. The freshness is gone, naturally, but the ambition remains). RR you're a life saver! I asked about these in the "ask a question" thread and got no response. Now I know I want to buy these now. If you like them, with your balanced view of Thanos and Starlin, then I know I will. :-) |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 5, 2016 13:39:16 GMT -5
Jim Starlin came back for a trio of graphic novels in which the "real" Thanos wonders why he's been behaving so erratically over the past decades, doing silly things like invading Earth. In the last one, The Infinity Finale, he's back to what he should be doing these days : helping reshape the entire multiverse, playing politics on the highest level imaginable. (No, even higher than that!) I didn't care at all for Thanos from MtiO annual #2 to the Annihilation saga, but these three recent books were very enjoyable. The third one even manages to be as ground-shaking as the original story (or at least roughly in the same ball park. The freshness is gone, naturally, but the ambition remains). RR you're a life saver! I asked about these in the "ask a question" thread and got no response. Now I know I want to buy these now. If you like them, with your balanced view of Thanos and Starlin, then I know I will. :-) I was surprised by how much I liked them, especially the third one. I was expecting a retread of familiar Starlin themes, and while there is some of that, I think the final payoff is worth it. The meta message is also sort of interesting. Starlin basically shows that only he gets to decide who the real Thanos is! (Hey, fair is fair. He created the character). |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Aug 5, 2016 13:53:44 GMT -5
Ahh shax, you fixed the typo in the thread title. The extra i's always made me think of ... :-) |
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Post by shaxper on Aug 6, 2016 3:01:05 GMT -5
Got further in the Magus Saga today but, as I still wasn't really feeling the storyline yet, I decided to backtrack and read the earlier Adam Warlock adventures. While I'd never consciously intended to collect them, it turns out I had most of the issues that make up
The Counter-Earth Saga
Marvel Premiere #1-2, Warlock #1-8, Incredible Hulk #176-178
Ancillary stories leading up to this storyline: Fantastic Four #66-67, Thor #134-135 and 165-166, Tales to Astonish #94-96
Actually, I didn't even know about this storyline until I started reading it tonight, even though I'd read the final chapters of it only earlier this year, not realizing it was the culmination of a much larger storyline.
Wow. Why don't people talk about this one? It's positively brilliant. The awesome Gil Kane art aside, Thomas weaves a science-fiction version of the New Testament that adheres to the original so faithfully and yet is handled with tremendous subtlety. It's never obvious and obnoxiously in your face until Gerry Conway picks up and concludes the discarded storyline in the pages of the Incredible Hulk. It takes on serious social issues too, as well as themes and ideas Starlin repeats in both Phase I of the Thanos Saga (vibrating the Earth a micro-second out of sync, an android embodiment of a computer that bears witness) and in The Magus Saga (everyone thinks they are the good guys, especially when committing heinous acts of evil, and the criticism of organized religion). The first three issues were truly special, and I wonder if the quality continued through Warlock #2-8 (which I do not own). It's regrettable that Conway turned in such a lackluster final storyline in contrast. I'm glad someone finished it, but he both adheres to the New Testament less carefully and is insultingly overt about the whole thing.
But, as of Warlock #10, I enjoyed the Counter-Earth Saga far more than I'm currently enjoying The Thanos Saga, which is really good, but not rocking my world in any way yet.
I'll get back to Magus and Thanos tomorrow. In the meantime, anyone else here familiar with the Counter-Earth storyline? What are your opinions on it?
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 6, 2016 9:10:53 GMT -5
It was brilliant when it started; Jesus as hippie superhero. I think it suffered massively from Gilk Kane being replaced by Bob Brown of all people.
The shift from the Counter Earth storyline to the Magus one is so important that these might feature completely different characters, but I'd be hard pressed to say one is better than the other.
Well, let me backtrack a little there... The Magus storyline is more coherent, what with being written and drawn by the same person. There are also a few twists in the Counter Earth saga that seem to be improvised and don't really work. But in tems of sheer enjoyment, I like both eras of Warlock equally.
The first issue in the Counter Earth saga might be the single best introduction to a new super-hero concept I've ever read. There is so much potential crammed in those pages!!! It has an epic feel, a grandiose atmosphere that makes it look like comic-book written by Richard Wagner. And the Kane art... wow.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 6, 2016 9:18:51 GMT -5
It was brilliant when it started; Jesus as hippie superhero. I think it suffered massively from Gilk Kane being replaced by Bob Brown of all people. Sheesh. Sounds nearly as bad as this:  I do think I'd be enjoying The Magus storyline better if Starlin's art remained as consistently good as it had during Phase 1, and if his character and costume designs were a little less terrible. You've captured my feelings on those first issues beautifully, RR. Too bad it doesn't consistently hold at that level. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Aug 6, 2016 11:16:09 GMT -5
Whenever I read either "side" of Warlock I'm not sure which one I like more. I'll agree with RR that Counter-Earth's saga, at least in Warlock, suffered from multiple artist and writers. Yet it's remained stellar. I just imagine what it could have been if just handled by Thomas & Kane alone. Both have aspects that hit home with me and why I adopted his namesake.
Marvel Premiere #2's cover and those Thor issues are some of the best pre-Starlin Warlock visually. Kirby did Thor vs Warlock and Galactus vs Warlock insanely awesome. And I really like the Hulk issues as well. Both in story and art.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 7, 2016 9:24:29 GMT -5
I was shocked to see that Gil Kane only did the first 3 Warlock appearances ( Marvel Premiere 1,2 and Warlock 1). But even so, I really enjoyed the entire first series. But the Starlin issues are superior in their storytelling and long range impact. But I love them both.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 7, 2016 21:25:35 GMT -5
Just As an aside Shax, read Thanos Rising, it was a 5 issue mini series that came out around 2013. It was the best non Starlin depiction of Thanos that I ever read. It's sort of like a year one story and it was horrific.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 7, 2016 22:55:49 GMT -5
Strange Tales #180-181, Warlock #9-14
Yeah, this is not working for me. I can see how original it was to have Starlin introducing far out concepts of existentialism and science fiction in a medium for which those concepts were woefully under-utilized, but he does it so damn poorly. He constantly violates his own logic to the point that trying to follow his thinking becomes an exercise in futility. If Magus really is Warlock from the future, painstakingly ensuring that all goes down exactly as he recalls it having occurred before, why is he suddenly following the urge to try new ways of tormenting Adam, and when Thanos shows up and convinces Adam to use the Soul Gem to eliminate Magus' forces, instead of saying "Oh no. That never happened before! Thanos is a rogue variable throwing everything off," Magus' response is "Cool, now you're more like me than ever." And the means for disrupting Magus ultimately proves to make even less sense. Forget trying to disrupt the continuity of time (the very basis for this struggle). Let's have a "time probe" take you to some weird place where, by simply blasting a physical representation of your timeline, all is saved.
And if Adam has now absorbed the memories of both Magus and his future self several months ahead of now, shouldn't he know everything that's coming his way in the stories that follow? Shouldn't he be grasping for a sense of identity when the very person he desperately fought never to become is now a part of his very conscience?
ugh.
Look, when Lee and Ditko did their Doctor Strange run (which Starlin credits here as a major influence upon him), they didn't even try to explain stuff, and that was okay. It was presented as being too far over our heads -- too cosmic -- for us to even grasp. But here, Starlin is overly eager to provide us with detailed explanations, and those explanations don't end up making any sense. Man, the Star-Thief story that followed was even more insulting. How do you have Warlock visit a star system where the star has vanished, explore an inhabited planet, observe that all life has died due to lack of heat, and even question what magical force allows the planets to remain in their original orbits without a star present, and yet Adam never wonders why there's daylight on the planet he visits? It's just typical of Starlin's writing across this run -- meticulously logical until it absolutely isn't.
Also, Starlin's art has been far less impressive across these issues.
If I were 14 and reading this for the first time, I might think it's genius, and, upon subsequent readings, I might be so caught up in nostalgia and memory of my first impressions as to overlook the entire non-senseical nature of all of this, but, first approaching it as an adult, I just can't get into it. I truly hope Phase 3 (Warlock #15, Avengers Annual #7, and Marvel Two in One #2) is better.
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