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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 8, 2016 1:20:07 GMT -5
If I were 14 and reading this for the first time, I might think it's genius, and, upon subsequent readings, I might be so caught up in nostalgia and memory of my first impressions as to overlook the entire non-senseical nature of all of this, but, first approaching it as an adult, I just can't get into it. I truly hope Phase 3 (Warlock #15, Avengers Annual #7, and Marvel Two in One #2) is better. The annuals, I read as a kid, so I don't expect to be objective about them, but the rest I encountered as an adult and it works better for me, than most comics published by Marvel up to that point in time. I can see the silliness in some of the concepts used, like the star thief and the beginning of #15, but I don't see those problems you mention, with the core of the Magus storyline. You have to keep in mind, that Magus had to embrace madness, in order to survive his prolonged metamorphosis. As for the art, I never took Starlin for a great artist, he's a writer who happens to draw and he needs a lot of time, for the result to come out ok. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 8, 2016 4:49:06 GMT -5
Strange Tales #180-181, Warlock #9-14Yeah, this is not working for me. I can see how original it was to have Starlin introducing far out concepts of existentialism and science fiction in a medium for which those concepts were woefully under-utilized, but he does it so damn poorly. He constantly violates his own logic to the point that trying to follow his thinking becomes an exercise in futility. If Magus really is Warlock from the future, painstakingly ensuring that all goes down exactly as he recalls it having occurred before, why is he suddenly following the urge to try new ways of tormenting Adam, and when Thanos shows up and convinces Adam to use the Soul Gem to eliminate Magus' forces, instead of saying "Oh no. That never happened before! Thanos is a rogue variable throwing everything off," Magus' response is "Cool, now you're more like me than ever." And the means for disrupting Magus ultimately proves to make even less sense. Forget trying to disrupt the continuity of time (the very basis for this struggle). Let's have a "time probe" take you to some weird place where, by simply blasting a physical representation of your timeline, all is saved. And if Adam has now absorbed the memories of both Magus and his future self several months ahead of now, shouldn't he know everything that's coming his way in the stories that follow? Shouldn't he be grasping for a sense of identity when the very person he desperately fought never to become is now a part of his very conscience? ugh. Look, when Lee and Ditko did their Doctor Strange run (which Starlin credits here as a major influence upon him), they didn't even try to explain stuff, and that was okay. It was presented as being too far over our heads -- too cosmic -- for us to even grasp. But here, Starlin is overly eager to provide us with detailed explanations, and those explanations don't end up making any sense. Man, the Star-Thief story that followed was even more insulting. How do you have Warlock visit a star system where the star has vanished, explore an inhabited planet, observe that all life has died due to lack of heat, and even question what magical force allows the planets to remain in their original orbits without a star present, and yet Adam never wonders why there's daylight on the planet he visits? It's just typical of Starlin's writing across this run -- meticulously logical until it absolutely isn't. Also, Starlin's art has been far less impressive across these issues. If I were 14 and reading this for the first time, I might think it's genius, and, upon subsequent readings, I might be so caught up in nostalgia and memory of my first impressions as to overlook the entire non-senseical nature of all of this, but, first approaching it as an adult, I just can't get into it. I truly hope Phase 3 (Warlock #15, Avengers Annual #7, and Marvel Two in One #2) is better. You make some points that are valid. I do agree that the explanation for the alteration of time is dodgy but in comics , you will and always run into a wall when you try to explain everything that is just impossible to do or that violates the laws of nature. As for the art, yeah I Agree he had lesser inkers handle the last few issues and it was a bit of a mess. But in defense of the story, he had to prevent his becoming the Magus so he met himself in the future and eliminated his dying form to stop that process. THAT was awesome. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 8, 2016 4:52:18 GMT -5
Also, you will see that same scene in the issues you've yet to read. THAT's awesome too.
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Post by brutalis on Aug 8, 2016 8:16:02 GMT -5
Warlock by Thomas/Kane/Brown was something i read during my teenage years but at the time i didn't enjoy as i felt it was to heavy handed on the biblical aspects. To the young me the Starlin transition was much more interesting and exciting where it took the biblical aspect into the realm of cosmic fantasy. Today i can appreciate both version's of Adam's story.
About Starlin's art: at the time while it was always irregular in quality i think we were more accepting of fluctuating art styles due to the times. By this time i knew enough to know the right inks could make or break an artist. I knew enough that comics were produced on the quick and sometimes rushed based on the artists speed and deadline. I knew Starlin was somebody that was still growing and learning with every issue he plotted and drew. To me his comics spoke of his passion and love of comic books and rather than seeing the flaws i was wrapped up in the adventure. Today i can critically evaluate those old comics to pieces if i chose but instead i prefer to remember the joy i had reading these stories and looking for them everywhere i could. I want to hold on to that sensation of fun and excitement because the comics of today just don't compare at that level.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 8, 2016 8:24:44 GMT -5
Strange Tales #180-181, Warlock #9-14Yeah, this is not working for me. I can see how original it was to have Starlin introducing far out concepts of existentialism and science fiction in a medium for which those concepts were woefully under-utilized, but he does it so damn poorly. He constantly violates his own logic to the point that trying to follow his thinking becomes an exercise in futility. If Magus really is Warlock from the future, painstakingly ensuring that all goes down exactly as he recalls it having occurred before, why is he suddenly following the urge to try new ways of tormenting Adam, and when Thanos shows up and convinces Adam to use the Soul Gem to eliminate Magus' forces, instead of saying "Oh no. That never happened before! Thanos is a rogue variable throwing everything off," Magus' response is "Cool, now you're more like me than ever." And the means for disrupting Magus ultimately proves to make even less sense. Forget trying to disrupt the continuity of time (the very basis for this struggle). Let's have a "time probe" take you to some weird place where, by simply blasting a physical representation of your timeline, all is saved. I took that time probe thing as something symbolic. Warlock blasting away at the Magus timeline does not in and of itself do anything; it's just a representation of Warlock choosing a radically different timeline, one that will not lead to his becoming the Magus. The Magus does not disappear because a certain road in a Ditkoesque universe was broken, but because in the new destiny that he chose, Adam would commit suicide a few months later, taking his own soul into the soul gem. He might be, and perhaps he is; perhaps his "current" identity isn't struggling overmuch with his Magus memory because he never had the time to grow into the persona of the Magus, and just remembers the deeds of the latter the way we might after studying someone's life in detail... It's hard to say, because after this adventure Warlock essentially brooded for a few months, tried to stop Thanos from commiting stellar genocide, and killed himself. Maybe the Magus's memories turned him into a complete nihilist who saw no future at all for himself. It actually worked quite well for me! (Perhaps it's all those Moorcock stories I read, in which the hero is really cut from the same cloth as Starlin's Warlock!) Er... It's the same phenomenon as in The Force Awakens?  I agree that in comcis, the most elementary concepts of science often fly out the window. Wasn't it Leialoha's art over Starlin's breakdowns? Well, hum... It's certainly in the same vein... |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Aug 8, 2016 17:16:24 GMT -5
I was shocked to see that Gil Kane only did the first 3 Warlock appearances ( Marvel Premiere 1,2 and Warlock 1). Kane missed Warlock #2 but returned to pencil #3-5. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 9, 2016 21:01:51 GMT -5
Warlock #15, Avengers Annual #7, and Marvel Two-in-One Annual #2
I was struggling with these for a while. Though there were some awesome ideas at the core (Warlock struggling with mortality and existential meaning, his finally getting murdered by his past self--at the time who would have guessed Starlin would actually go through with it?!--and his subsequently finding the peace he'd always sought in the Soul Gem), there were so many holes and logic lapses that it was really hard to look past them. The biggest of these had to be the idea that we never actually saw Thanos obtain the five other gems. That seems like a far more interesting story than much of what I've read here. Maybe Starlin intended to tell those stories but didn't get the green light? I also really would have liked to have seen the moment where Death rejects Thanos and what that does to him. All the coolest stuff happened off-page.
And then there's Thanos' master plan. Last time around, he merged with all reality itself. Granted, it's hard to top that one, but now he conveniently discovers another legendary weapon (again, not actually depicted anywhere in a story) and then just uses it to blast a laser at the sun? I mean c'mon. That's such a letdown considering what he tried to do last time.
But I have to say that Marvel Two-in-One Annual #2 truly rocked my world. That was an AMAZING climax (even if it was technically an epilogue), particularly in experiencing the entire thing through the eyes of Peter Parker, and the tremendously real self-doubt he experiences in the wake of such events. That moment when he chose to run away truly got to me -- even heroes can be human. And Thanos' final takedown, Warlock's final revenge, and the epithets given to both, this was Starlin at his best (even if, as usual, Thanos' actions were neither particularly well thought out nor impressive here).
In fact, I loved this final chapter so much that I've gone ahead and ordered the Return of Thanos tpb, as I intend to read it and the Infinity Gauntlet next (well, after I re-read Death of Captain Marvel).
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 9, 2016 23:17:31 GMT -5
The Death of Captain Marvel
I first read this years ago, before I'd lost someone in that way. Not up for talking about it, but yeah -- Starlin gets it.
One problem with an otherwise brilliantly done story: in the conclusion of The Thanos Saga, Thanos looks disappointed and annoyed when Marvel shows up, hoping it would have been Warlock. I never got the sense that Marvel meant that much to Thanos beyond being the one to thwart him the first time around. That's all I've got for nitpicks this time around, though. Beautifully done, nearly perfect work.
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Post by berkley on Aug 9, 2016 23:51:22 GMT -5
It seems churlish to say anything negative about The Death of Captain Marvel but if I'm to be honest I have to say it's never been a favourite of mine. The story itself felt like something Starlin very much wanted and needed to write, and I give it all due respect in that regard; but it also felt like Captain Marvel and thus the rest of the cast were made the vehicle for that story for no reason other than that Starlin wouldn't have been able to get it published otherwise.
As for Warlock, I think it's a highlight of Marvel's entire history as a comics company. The story totally captured me with its moody protagonist, visual energy, and atmosphere of cosmic significance. I much prefer Starlin's artwork from this period to his later work. I really don't feel any sympathy with Shaxper's criticisms at all. I'm not looking for logic and rationality in what is essentially a fantasy story set in outer space, I'm looking for things like mood, ambiance, emotional engagement, settings and characters that catch my interest. Starlin's Warlock delivered all that and more, as well as or better than nearly anything else I can think of.
However, I've always thought that the conclusion was badly compromised by being shoehorned into those Marvel-Two-in-One and the Avengers Annuals. The result was two great superhero comics, and in fact one of the best Avengers Annuals ever, but not, I fear, the grand finale the Warlock epic deserved, nor, I suspect, exactly the one Starlin had planned before the Warlock series was cancelled. Even at the time Spider-Man's presence felt like an intrusion to me, something added on just to get the thing in print in some form or another. And while I'm sure the Avengers and possibly the Thing would have been part of the dénouement in any case, the focus of the narrative was shifted in a way I don't believe would have been the case had Starlin been able to conclude his story in the pages of Warlock.
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 10, 2016 0:35:17 GMT -5
I really don't feel any sympathy with Shaxper's criticisms at all. I'm not looking for logic and rationality in what is essentially a fantasy story set in outer space I don't either, and yet, I do look for logic and rationality. I guess that you can have all sorts of reactions, to any given story. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 10, 2016 1:21:32 GMT -5
I really don't feel any sympathy with Shaxper's criticisms at all. I'm not looking for logic and rationality in what is essentially a fantasy story set in outer space I don't either, and yet, I do look for logic and rationality. I guess that you can have all sorts of reactions, to any given story. The flaws are there. I think it's more a matter of whether or not they detracted from the power of the story for you. I think there are two factors involved that drew my attention to these flaws and made them hard to ignore, whereas that might not be the case for others: 1. I'm first reading these as an adult. No warm nostalgia to fall back upon. 2. I was writing my thoughts after reading every few chapters as opposed to just sitting back and enjoying the work as a whole. The final chapter blew my mind and made the entire saga seem more impressive to me than it did before I arrived at that point. Had I read the whole thing and THEN recorded my impressions, I might have been quicker to forget the flaws. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 10, 2016 4:10:38 GMT -5
I don't either, and yet, I do look for logic and rationality. I guess that you can have all sorts of reactions, to any given story. The flaws are there. Other than the ones I mentioned, I don't recall any more. They didn't left an impression, in case they existed. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 10, 2016 4:49:41 GMT -5
It seems churlish to say anything negative about The Death of Captain Marvel but if I'm to be honest I have to say it's never been a favourite of mine. The story itself felt like something Starlin very much wanted and needed to write, and I give it all due respect in that regard; but it also felt like Captain Marvel and thus the rest of the cast were made the vehicle for that story for no reason other than that Starlin wouldn't have been able to get it published otherwise. As for Warlock, I think it's a highlight of Marvel's entire history as a comics company. The story totally captured me with its moody protagonist, visual energy, and atmosphere of cosmic significance. I much prefer Starlin's artwork from this period to his later work. I really don't feel any sympathy with Shaxper's criticisms at all. I'm not looking for logic and rationality in what is essentially a fantasy story set in outer space, I'm looking for things like mood, ambiance, emotional engagement, settings and characters that catch my interest. Starlin's Warlock delivered all that and more, as well as or better than nearly anything else I can think of. However, I've always thought that the conclusion was badly compromised by being shoehorned into those Marvel-Two-in-One and the Avengers Annuals. The result was two great superhero comics, and in fact one of the best Avengers Annuals ever, but not, I fear, the grand finale the Warlock epic deserved, nor, I suspect, exactly the one Starlin had planned before the Warlock series was cancelled. Even at the time Spider-Man's presence felt like an intrusion to me, something added on just to get the thing in print in some form or another. And while I'm sure the Avengers and possibly the Thing would have been part of the dénouement in any case, the focus of the narrative was shifted in a way I don't believe would have been the case had Starlin been able to conclude his story in the pages of Warlock. berkley, you said what my heart and mind have always felt about the saga and the finale. But I wonder- in the two part conclusion, Warlock dies. Surely if the regular book had continued I don't think that's the way it would have ended. It makes me think that he wrapped it up in a way that the characters are off the table for other creators. And I agree that Spider-man placed in he book was probably a incentive for non Warlock fans to pick up the book. But i I have to say I love that Thanos killed off Gamora and Pip because it upped the stakes and made the final confrontation that more emotional. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 10, 2016 4:57:37 GMT -5
Hey Shax, sorry the saga didn't pop the way it did for me and the others that loved it. I originally read it in my early twenties and it was well before comic deaths became the joke it is now. But I caution that ANY bit of entertainment can be over analyzed until it is left a carcus. There are even people that have dissected Watchmen and the Killing Joke until it's referred to as hack work.
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 10, 2016 5:11:38 GMT -5
I wonder- in the two part conclusion, Warlock dies. Surely if the regular book had continued I don't think that's the way it would have ended. It makes me think that he wrapped it up in a way that the characters are off the table for other creators. And I agree that Spider-man placed in he book was probably a incentive for non Warlock fans to pick up the book. But i I have to say I love that Thanos killed off Gamora and Pip because it upped the stakes and made the final confrontation that more emotional. I think it was his intention to kill all of his creations, so that others wouldn't use/abuse them. That includes CM, who he changed fundamentally. And he did, everyone dies. There's also the battle between death and life, at the core of the story, and death always wins in the end, so it makes sense that he killed as many characters as he was allowed to. There are even people that have dissected Watchmen [...] until it's referred to as hack work. Allow me to doubt that. |
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