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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 11, 2016 2:08:38 GMT -5
Warning: Kirby fanboy thread. Proceed at your own risk. Lately I've been reading Lee-Kirby books but ignoring Lee's dialog. I think it improves the stories. Here I'd like to review Thor without Lee. This won't be a detailed analysis (you'll be relieved to hear), just a quick read, react, and move on. Obviously it includes speculation. But I think Kirby's art generally speaks for itself, and arguably requires very little text. Repeated warning: this is based on the idea that Kirby created the stories and Lee's role was to simplify them, join them up, promote them, run the business, etc. This thread will be sickeningly pro-Kirby. Still here? Don't say I didn't warn you. I haven't read yet, most of the Kirby run on Thor (yeah, I know), so I just wanted to say that what you point out, can also be applied to Ditko's Spider-Man, maybe even to Romita's. This is something I've heard other people say, as well, and was a clear conclusion we reached, in crazyoldhermit's thread. Maybe I should rename this "Thor without Lieber" I propose "Kirby's Thor: 'Nuff said!", referencing 2002's wordless month of May, at Marvel.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 11, 2016 5:54:55 GMT -5
I believe we had a thread previously, dedicated to Stan's book that you, I and others expressed their thoughts. Thanks for being diplomatic. It's hard to discuss these things without opening old wounds. So I just want to repeat my position that I think Stan was just as creative as Jack, but they had different roles. Here is my list of what I think Stan created: I think it's unfortunate that more people don't appreciate what Stan achieved. Isn't that list enough? Does Stan have to walk on water as well? I think when we realise the scale of what he achieved then we can allow him some weaknesses (like needing to put his name everywhere), without it feeling like an attack. Kirby had weaknesses too (bad at business, fell out with people, stabbed Joe Simon in the back). We all have weaknesses. But let's not forget the strengths.
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Post by Farrar on Aug 11, 2016 17:43:59 GMT -5
Thanks! Shows how much I know. In my defense, the Essentials didn't show any names. Maybe I should rename this "Thor without Lieber" Hi Tolworthy--are you saying your copy of the Essential Thor v. #1 doesn't have a table of contents that includes the credits for each issue in the volume? The credits list the plotter, scripter, pencil artist, ink artist and letterer for each issue. If it's not in your volume I can send you a list or maybe scan it.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 11, 2016 19:02:17 GMT -5
Thanks! Shows how much I know. In my defense, the Essentials didn't show any names. Maybe I should rename this "Thor without Lieber" Hi Tolworthy--are you saying your copy of the Essential Thor v. #1 doesn't have a table of contents that includes the credits for each issue in the volume? The credits list the plotter, scripter, pencil artist, ink artist and letterer for each issue. If it's not in your volume I can send you a list or maybe scan it. Thanks. The Essentials title page is printed in black on grey, so I skipped it: my eyesight is not what it was. I will fetch my glasses and a bright light.
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Post by Farrar on Aug 11, 2016 19:57:44 GMT -5
Hi Tolworthy--are you saying your copy of the Essential Thor v. #1 doesn't have a table of contents that includes the credits for each issue in the volume? The credits list the plotter, scripter, pencil artist, ink artist and letterer for each issue. If it's not in your volume I can send you a list or maybe scan it. Thanks. The Essentials title page is printed in black on grey, so I skipped it: my eyesight is not what it was. I will fetch my glasses and a bright light. Oh, you're right--I see what you mean. Fwiw, for the pre-JiM #97 issues (when Tales of Asgard started as a back up feature), here's a little cheatsheet: JiM#83-91: Lieber's credited as the scripter JiM#92-96: Robert Bernstein (R. Berns) is credited as the scripter
(you probably already know all this but I don't want you to have to go foraging for your glasses and/or a flashlight! )
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 12, 2016 13:14:54 GMT -5
Journey into Mystery 85 (Loki, first silver age appearance)
Plot: Loki escapes and causes mischief. Thor has new powers.
After two issues that I thought were superb, this issue is a real shock. I will try to put a positive spin on it, but my admiration is on life support. Everything will depend on the next issue. Was this "superb story" all in my head?
Everything was perfect until page 3. By ignoring the dialog we can easily read the story so far as chapters in a superbly crafted story. In JiM 83 we learn about cosmic threats and the hidden gods who leave artifacts to help us, Arthur C Clarke style. Great stuff. In JiM 84 we learn that the world's nations have bigger problems than superheroics can solve. (Thor's solution in JiM 84 was obviously just a sticking plaster at best). Blake was slowly discovering what Thor could do. It all developed very smoothly. JiM 85 started beautifully, and I was thrilled to see what happened next. We learn of Asgard, and I think Loki's tree prison is perfectly in keeping with the ancient myths. Then we turn the page, and...
What the heck happened?? ?
Loki just does stupid, random, pointless things, with no build up, no cause and effect. Worse, Thor suddenly discovers advanced powers and knowledge. Where did that come from?? This is like a parody of bad comic writing. No motivation, no cause and effect, random absurd powers, nothing flows, nothing makes sense, it's all very embarrassing.
That was my initial reaction.
Like I said, it all hinges on the next issue: is the story really this bad? Or is it worth a second look? For now I will give it a positive spin (rather like Thor and his hammer when faced with the negative people, har har). Here is the charitable view:
Loki's crazy antics:
Well he's Loki. He is chaos. Doing absurd things is the whole point. This is some commentary on entropy and the need for us to be prepared for the unexpected. So he serves a role in the cosmic order. Er, OK, I can buy that...
Thor's sudden expertise at everything:
The previous two issues established that Thor is gradually discovering his power set: hit the hammer once, and "X" happens So try hitting it twice, and "Y" happens. Throw it, and "Z" happens. So throw it and hold on, and... etc. I guess we don't need to waste time with baby steps any more. We just take the next twenty steps as done. Actually, there is a logical progression here:
Power 1: The key is the early scene where Thor uses his hammer and lightning to levitate a child's hospital bed. In a single image we learn that he has jumped forward about ten steps. We knew that the hammer could change direction in flight (to return), that it could pull somebody at ridiculous speed without damaging the person, and that it can create electrical effects. If we take this to its natural conclusion, Thor might have develop the ability to move through electric charge. And do so with extreme control, as demonstrated by doing it in a children's hospital.
Power 2: Spinning the hammer to turn negative into positive. This is another huge leap forward. We know that Thor is from Asgard, and here he seems to have extra understanding of his powers, suggesting that he's gone back home to learn. A prior visit to Asgard is plausible (though not proven) given the very start and very end of this story. I'm saying yes.
So this story works if we take it as skipping a lot of predictable steps. Maybe this is not a crazy story, just super advanced. yeah, that's it. Next issue will decide.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 13, 2016 18:09:19 GMT -5
Journey Into Mystery 86: Thor is Superman
Hurrah! The jury is in. "super advanced" it is. What looked like crazy story telling last issue was just the same story moving at ev ever faster pace. And this issue the rate speeds up!
The plot: Odin! Time travel! Thor showing he can fly faster than a speeding rocket, withstand a nuclear bomb blast, etc! It's like every issue is ten times faster than the previous one!
And the art is beautiful. I thought last issue's scene with Thor on top of the Empire State Building was good, but Kirby's excelled himself here, with Thor calling on Odin.
I'm trying to resist the temptation to analyse this in detail: there is just so much to say, but I promised to make this just a "first time read through reaction". So I'll just say how much I'm loving this, and make just two observations:
1. Each issue leads to the next.
JiM 83: Blake gets the powers, and we realise he will deal with cosmic level threats.
JiM 84: Blake learns more of his powers and we see this is not just sci fi, this is bigger than that: he waill also deal with international politics.
JiM 85: We jump ahead about ten stages with his powers: Thor is now an expert, and we begin to meet the other gods. Science, politics, religion, what next?
JiM 85: his power set reaches its ultimate stage (see next point). And we see that the story ranges across not just spatial dimensions but time as well.
2. Thor is not about superheroes.
Thor seems to be about the infinite: taking everything to the extreme and beyond. JiM 86 makes it clear that he can defeat any regular threat: he can withstand a nuclear bomb, throw someone through dimensions, travel through time, and call on even more powerful gods as needed. So this is not about regular fights! These four issues have established who Thor is, and what he can do, so now I have to know: what happens next? Where do we go from here?
This may get the title for the world's fastest moving comic, and all in ten pages or so per story. I love it!
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 14, 2016 11:29:26 GMT -5
Journey into mystery 87: quo vadis?
Plot:
After the four issue introduction, where we learn that Thor can do pretty much anything, he is faced with his greatest challenge: what to do? Lacking any other ideas, he becomes friends with the government. But America versus Communism is a battle of ideologies, not muscle: Thor's power is of no long term use here. He's just playing wack-a-mole. I expect this to be the only story like this. it serves its purpose.
Art v dialog:
The dialog suggests that Thor is just having random adventures and wishing Jane Foster would notice him. But the art does not imply that. To me, Blake's face says it all. This is not the face of a man in love. It's the face of a man in a very serious situation wondering what to do.
Part of a continuous story:
SPOILER ALERT: from what I recall of skimming through the later series, Thor is here to prepare for Ragnarok. All the stories seem to build toward that. And after that Kirby seems to lose interest in the title (or rather, he is preparing the next stage, the New Gods). Seen in that context, JiM 83-86 introduces the character, JiM 87 says "what is my purpose?" and JiM 88 should begin to answer that. Every issue matters. Every issue moves the big story forwards.
Jane :
Regarding Jane, she seems to be here not for romance (which makes no sense: Blake has bigger issues on his mind) but to provide a contrast with the everyday. One thing was very clear from my reading of the FF: Kirby would constantly switch between the cosmic and the mundane, to heighten the contrast. I think that is Jane's role here. To me the art in the last frame each issue is not saying "I secretly love her" but "what does this all mean?"
Changes to the art?
Incidentally, a couple of issues ago the last Don-and-Jane frame was very large with thick lines, as if it had been photocopied and enlarged, to cover over an original frame that is now lost. If so, I wonder what?
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 15, 2016 0:02:39 GMT -5
Journey into mystery 88: the bigger story revealed
Plot: Loki discovers the significance of Thor's hammer.
Six issues in, we have enough clues to see the backbone of the story (of which each issue of JiM is just a chapter). It's Thor versus Loki. But we still only have glimpses of the reason behind the battle. We know that for some reason Loki has been allowed to escape after many centuries. I think it's Odin's long term plan to survive Ragnarok*. As the wild card, the one god who won't fight alongside the others, the creative, lateral thinking one, the one with the self preservation instinct, Loki is the only hope for the gods' genes.
Loki is behind every issue:
Loki has now returned twice in four issues, and when he isn't there he may be behind the scenes. Flicking ahead, this will soon be made explicit. In this issue we see that he was watching Thor throughout the previous issue. Presumably he arranged the communist plot in order to test Thor's power. So while the first four issues covered Thor discovering his powers, these issue show Loki discovering Thor's power:
JiM 85: Loki tries random stuff to see how Thor will react. JiM 86: Loki will have sen the full extent of his power. JiM 87: Loki arranges further tests, looking for a weakness. JiM 88: Loki learns what he needs: it's in the hammer.
I speculate that Odin focused the power in the hammer so that, when the gods are all killed, some aspect of them can return through artefacts like this. Just guessing. But everything in Norse mythology is about the inevitable destruction at Ragnarok, so it makes sense.
Other repeated themes:
We're starting to see many other subplots develop, issue by issue: Thor's growing realisation, his relationship with America, Odin's thinking, Don and Jane, etc. To keep this short, I'll just discuss one: the nature of the gods. When Loki first appeared his first act was to turn people into negative versions of themselves, like photographic negatives. This was so wild, so crazy, that I seriously began to doubt the sanity of the story (see my notes to JiM 85). But the fast pace of other events persuaded me that this was no accident. Sure enough, this time Loki does something very similar: he turns people into blank outlines. How does he do that? What does it tell us? And another thing: notice how Thor so quickly finds inferior duplicates of himself? Flicking ahead, this is another repeated theme. What does it mean?
If we just go by the dialog then the reason for both phenomena is that the dialog writer lacks ideas: throw crazy stuff at the stories, and having made Thor too strong the only serious threat is another Thor. But remember that I distrust the dialog and I'm focusing on the art. I have always found that Kirby's art tells its own story, and that story always makes sense. I don't think Kirby planned it consciously, but he has enough experience to intuitively make wise choices. I think that this is one of those cases: all this crazy stuff becomes simple when we remember that this is about alternate dimensions.
The gods as higher dimensional beings
We know that Thor can throw Loki to Asgard, even though we cannot see Asgard either in the clouds or nearby space. We know that Thor can communicate with Odin simply by thinking. We know that Thor (with Odin's help) can travel through time. We know that Thor can stand next to an exploding nuclear bomb without serious harm. All of this argues for the gods being higher dimensional beings. This agrees with the standard view of gods, e.g. in the Bible: they are "above" us, yet not in a way that we see, and (crucially) they can see everything at once. As Edwinn Abbott Abbott (so good they named him twice) observed, all of this can be explained if these beings are in the next dimension above us.
Imagine if we, three dimensional beings, interacted with a two dimensional world. Like, looking at pages in a book. We could easily jump in and out of that world, step forwards or back in time (move to a later page without reading every word in between), and see everything that is going on. This explains Thor's bomb survival: the worst a 2D bomb could do would be mess up one zero thickness plane of your body, leaving everything above or below it intact. Thor would think he could probab survive that fine. And making duplicates would be easy: a 3D body is like an infinite stack of 2D bodies. It also allows Thor to draw electricity and water from apparently nowhere. It all fits. I think Loki's first trick, the negative people, is the clue: it's like us finding a 2D picture of a person and flipping it over or filling it in. Later creating blank people is a reminder that this was no accident.
Kirby as master planner
This shows how Kirby can be right even without realising it. To a 3D person, creating 2D art, negatives or blank shapes are trivially easy to imagine. And Kirby is acting like a god: he has all power over these drawn figures. So anything godlike that Kirby imagines (blank people, time travel, surviving a bomb, etc) makes sense because that is exactly the power that Kirby (the god) has over his creations. All Kirby has to do is act naturally and as long as he cares about the story, it will fit together over the long term, even though he may not consciously know how. This is not true for the official writer, because the writer is thinking about other 3D people, not 2D people. And it is not true for other artists who see it as "just a job" and just slavishly copy the writer without adding their own ideas.
Another example of how Kirby can be right without consciously thinking about it is in his art that looks solid and his science that machinery that connects to the real world: Kirby spent his life fighting and reading, the stuff had to work ion his mind, so it worked on the page. And the way that Kirby's stories move forwards (superheroes in 1940s, gangs, westerns and monsters in the 1950s, science and existential crisis in the 1960s): they reflect the culture that was developing in the real world. I do not want to pretend that Kirby planned any of this in conscious detail, but the facts that he cared so much about stories, and spent so long on the art, he was stubborn enough to contradict a writer of he wanted to, he was such a close observer of reality, he was such a thinker, these are what creates the unique and consistent Kirby effect, regardless of who is writing. In my opinion.
I could write ten times more about this issue, but that's enough writing for one day.
Footnote
* Odin made it so Loki could be released when people shed a tear for him. So Odin foresaw a day when either
(1) the old gods are dead and future beings shed a tear for them: they even miss Loki. Loki, safe inside the tree, could presumably survive. (Especially if Loki could make some connection with Yggdrasil, which spanned more than one world: being Loki, and having plenty of time, that was a given). (2) the gods would be too distracted by other events: this is what happened, allowing Loki to trick a fake tear. What events were they distracted by? Well Earth was changing rapidly: accelerating technology, the threat of alien invasions, nuclear war, etc. So that is the obvious answer. Both scenarios suggest Ragarok. Norse mythology is all about fighting to delay this inevitable end that is always on the gods' minds.
tl;dr
Thor is one continuous story. Every issue of JiM is an essential chapter that builds the bigger narrative.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 15, 2016 23:53:08 GMT -5
Journey Into Mystery 89: Thug Thatcher ("No More Humans")
Plot: Thor has finally had enough with the petty humans. After this it's all gods, god-like mortals, or nothing.
Having established that Thor is about cosmic level threats, we have to say goodbye to the frustrating petty crook stories, and this story is about why. From beginning to end, Thor is held back by the smallness of the people around him. I'm putting it crudely, but it's true:
1. He starts by having to waste time with hiding his secret identity
2. Then he is unable to simply dispatch a petty crook for the same reason (can't reveal his identity)
3. Then he has the ethical problem of mortals falling in love with him. Obviously they will, but he could never marry a mortal because that means putting that person first, and thus risking the whole planet. Gods, by their nature, deal with groups, not individuals. A god will often require a human to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. You can't order your wife to do that! So I don't think this "I love Jane" dialog makes any sense. By avoiding the dialog we can ignore that subplot. Now obviously Thor will care for her, as she is a reminder of the people he is there to protect, so there will be a love like that ("like Pets" as General Zod so memorably put it). But Thor fretting over hiding his love for Jane? Everyone can see that is a go-nowhere trick that makes no sense.
4. Note the ironic contrast of the cover. It shows Thor being godly, then inside we see him wasting his time on stuff that should not distract him for more than a second, yet because of his links to humans it does. The final frame shows him flying away from humans. No doubt they will still be an inconvenience in the future, but in this thread I'm trying to make sense of the art, and I can only do that by seeing this issue as a farewell to pettiness.
5. Oh, and note that the Thug Thatcher problem resolves itself at the ebd without Thor's intervention,. Thor should not be wasting his time on this level, he has bigger problems to solve.
BTW, why does Thor even keep his identity secret? The obvious reason is that he is vulnerable while as Blake. So why does he stay as Blake? My theory, and I'm sticking with it, is that Odin has put the power in the hammer rather than the person so that somehow the power can survive past Ragnarok. This will work fine if Blake keeps a low profile. This should be easy: he is a natural loner. His very first appearance shows him as the kind of person who takes solo holidays on the other side of the world and then wanders off. And none of his face art portrays the slightest interest in other people, except an ethical desire to help others.
So I'm calling the Thug Thatcher issue "no more humans"
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 16, 2016 0:15:44 GMT -5
The non-Kirby issues
We now have a few issues with no Kirby. The stories have little to redeem them, with or without the dialog, so I won't waste much time on these.
Journey Into Mystery 90: the "Carbon Copy Man" combines the aliens and duplicates themes that I mentioned in earlier reviews.
Journey Into Mystery 91: "Sandu, Master of the Supernatural" repeats the "Loki is behind all this" theme. And repeats copies Kirby's dramatic "giant Odin face" image, but this time it's just cheesy and devalued. I wonder if the "Sandu", the villain secretly being controlled by the REAL bad guy, is influenced by Kirby's story "Sando and Omar" from Captain America 1 back in 1941? That story may have been on Kirby's mind, as he updated it in 1965. Which raises the question, did these issues have any Kirby influence at plotting stage? He still did the covers, so was not completely detached.
Journey Into Mystery 92: "Loki Stole Thor's magic hammer" this develops the theme established in JiM 88: Loki knows about the hammer and wants it. Was Kirby involved at the initial discussion stage? Who knows. But the rest of it is forgettable. It's always interesting to see Sinnott pencils though. He is excellent at cleaning up other pencillers, but he doesn't quite get the layouts or faces right on his own, in my view. A perfect example of how inkers and pencillers have different skill sets.
BTW, I'm never comfortable with the word "magic" in Thor. I accept that its a convenient shorthand, but if religion or mythology are any good they should be something different. The word "magic" suggests "no need to try to understand". But with good stories (and real religion and real mythology) understand where it comes from is where the pleasure lies. Because the attempt to understand always unlocks bigger, more interesting stories. Or at least, that is true whenever Kirby is involved. I don't see that with other writers. If it's not Kirby then I agree with the mainstream view, that it's best to just say "it's just magic" and not think about those details.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 16, 2016 0:42:50 GMT -5
Journey Into Mystery 93: now it's gods all the way!Plot: Russian scientist gets super powers, faces Thor. We're not actually told that Loki is behind this, but it has his fingerprints all over it. And since this thread is about the art, not the dialog, I feel safe in going there. The Russian scientist has technology far above anything humans have (his assistants are robots!) and then gets abilities that are far beyond science: total immunity to radiation, and ability to harness it in creative ways. That's Thor territory: recall Thor's immunity to the cobalt bomb, Thor's use of atomic particles if the dialog is to be trusted at all, etc. And of course RM is immune to Thor's hammer. That's surely proof? And don't you think the RM's face, before his change, looks god-like? Hmmm. The radioactive man is basically Russia's Thor. Both are ordinary humans given divine powers. Both are squarely on the side of their government, as they'd have to be if dealing with global issues. They have to operate at the group level, not the individual level (see my previous review "no more humans"). We are firmly into the battles of the gods here. Though technically, Don Blake and RM are (as far as we know) demigods: half man, half god. Kirby won't focus on full gods until the New Gods. (Though "Tales of Asgard" will tease us with tales of full gods from the past). And Kirby wont go "post god" until Captain Victory, a title that is (in my view) about thinking, not fighting. Oh, and note that in this issue Blake treats Jane Foster as unimportant ("no more humans"). And at the final "Don and jane" shot we finally see him smile in a relaxed way. He now seems at ease. He no longer sends her mixed signals: their relationship is purely professional. I expect he has plans in place to reduce the risk of being held back through Jane being a hostage. Maybe a cupboard full of fake Thor mannequins? Time will tell.
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Post by berkley on Aug 16, 2016 0:52:20 GMT -5
Speaking of Tales of Asgard, I was just reading an interview with Neal Adams and I thought this bit was an interesting perspective on the the Kirby/Lee question: BTW, in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I don't read that as a put-down of Stan Lee: on the contrary, I think it confirms my own feeling that Kirby's potential might never have been unleashed but for his collaboration with Stan.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 16, 2016 0:52:29 GMT -5
More non-Kirby issues
Once again I'll skip the non-Kirby issues as they just rehash old themes:
Journey Into Mystery 94: Loki again
Journey Into Mystery 95: Duplicates again
Journey Into Mystery 96: Evil Merlin. These covers are Kirby, so MAYBE there is some influence here, some underlying story, but if so it's buried so far beneath other people's art and dialog that I can't uncover it. Moving on.
But what is this? Next issue we have Kirby PLUS the start of Tales of Asgard. Most commentators agree that Kirby's epic begins to explode right here, and sends shockwaves across every Marvel title. A "super special issue" indeed!
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 16, 2016 0:59:45 GMT -5
Speaking of Tales of Asgard, I was just reading an interview with Neal Adams and I thought this bit was an interesting perspective on the the Kirby/Lee question: BTW, in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I don't read that as a put-down of Stan Lee: on the contrary, I think it confirms my own feeling that Kirby's potential might never have been unleashed but for his collaboration with Stan. Agreed on both points! The history of comics seems to be endless frustration - of creative people being pushed down, or great ideas that just can't find the market, of brief fires soon extinguished in a sea of mediocrity. I'm thinking of those short but brilliant runs we see everywhere but they never continue for long. I think that Stan Lee was the world's greatest editor because he not only recognised that fire but used it to set the whole comics world alight. When I finish this race through Thor I want to go back to Sky Masters, and try to see what that was all about.
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