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Post by tolworthy on Aug 23, 2016 4:25:19 GMT -5
Journey Into Mystery 107: earth versus skyFrom now on I'll try to add a link to the Marvel Database for each issue. This might help when the reviews become confusing. Because often when we remove the dialog we see a different story. The Grey Gargoyle is a good example. Take his origin for example:  Stan's dialog makes this a "crazy comic book science" story: some guy creates a super power potion by accident. But imagine those frames without the dialog. It is clear that spilling the chemical is caused by the scientist being distracted by the opening door. The is confirmed when we see the amount of dialog crammed into the third frame: the art was not designed for that much text. The text breaks the flow, adding an unnecessary break ("after his superior has left"), then has to find a new reason for the accident so says the scientist is (inexplicably) careless. Yet the position of the body and hands shows this is supposed to be a smooth, continuous flow, like a movie. Kirby has a very cinematic flow, but the dialog breaks it. Why would Stan change this? Because the original art only makes sense if the scientist is well aware of what he is making, he just does not intend to use it on himself. This casts him in a different light: making this the result of years of research. Either he was more evil to start with, or this is a story of how easily we can turn against our fellow man when the opportunity arises (see: H.G. Wells' The Invisible Man, or Dracula, or any mad scientist story). Now recall the previous page where the scientist turns an entire airplane of passengers into stone. That is an unforgettable scene straight from some horror movie. It reminds me of Dracula's entrance into England, where a ship arrived and every crew member was dead. The only living thing was a dog, which left the ship as soon as it reaches land (the dog of course was Dracula). I am sure there must be closer parallels elsewhere. So Kirby was creating a far darker story than the one Stan created though dialog. Which brings up a related point: the dialog keeps saying how people will revert to normal after sixty minutes. But we never see that (Thor only escapes because his enchantment forces him to become Blake, and the Gargoyle may be a special case if his mask is any guide, indicating the ability to change back so he needs a disguise). It appears that Kirby may have intended the stone form to be permanent in his victims (as unlike the Gargoyle they cannot move). This would explain why Lee wanted to soften the story: Kirby's version was just too horrific. Kids, and the comics code, might find it too disturbing. Kirby's instincts were always more horror comic (about danger and discovery) than superhero (about winning). It's super exciting though: this issue is an absolute Kirby triumph, from the ominous stone gargoyle on the splash page to Don Blake's dramatic motorbike chase off the pier at the end. This is why I love Kirby's work!! Stone menIt cannot be a coincidence that this story is about a stone man. The art makes the Gargoyle look like the lava man, who I argued was far more important than the dialog suggested. This is now the third time we have seen a story about animated stone: the initial "stone men from Saturn", the lava man, and now this. Kirby's Thor only has three classes of people: - Gods (and other near-immortals. e.g. giants)
- Mortals
- Stone men
All the other "super beings" (Carbon Copy man, Merlin, Cobra, Hyde) were created when Jack Kirby was away. I'm not sure where to place the Radioactive Man, as his technology suggests help from either the future (Zarrko) or the gods (Loki). But I would probably class him as "stone man" since radioactivity is closely associated with uranium from mines. DemonsThese three classes reflect the theme of Thor: heaven, earth, and mortals caught between. These are represented by Odin, Surtur, and Thor/Blake caught between. Or in Christian symbolism, angels, demons and man. Gargoyles are traditionally carved in the form of demons, and Kirby's splash page art looks like his later creation The Demon. AlchemySo the story seems to be that some scientist has managed to tap into the Earth's latent power to create living stone. What, after all, is chemisty, except the child of alchemy, the attempt to find the active, changing element in Earth's minerals? Only this scientist is distracted, accidentally splashed himself, and discovers that this active essence is more of a life force than he realised, enabling him to transmute the higher element (life) into the lowest (stone). it's a big, rich, deep story, just as we would expect from Kirby. Oh, and about SifI almost forgot! This story began in a super interesting way. Until now the art never showed Don having romantic feelings for Jane, though as his only friend he clearly cared for her. But here that changes, as a result of the previous issue. The art strongly suggests that yes, Thor has fallen in love. But it's a silly, giddy kind of love, with nothing godlike about it. I can't wait to see how this develops. How will Sif feel? I see two possibilities: she will accept it as it's trivial, or this is part of re-born Thor's need to grow up. Male gods routinely have affairs with mortal women, and in the Eddas (the norse source texts), Sif herself has a son by another man, despite being married to Thor. Sif is also used as a synonym for Earth. Perhaps she would accept this, much as kings and Old Testament prophets routinely had concubines? Have your fun in Earth, but don't get that mixed up with your real duty when the time comes? While Stan Lee's dialog (and the comics code) is strictly 1950s western mainstream values, Kirby's reading goes far wider. Thor alone and naive?
Another possibility is that this is Thor beginning to weaken. Sure, he can still hold the hammer, but it took him a while to earn that right and perhaps it will take a while to lose it? Or perhaps he has simply forgotten much of his previous life, and so Earth life is his true test? According to Kirby's art he is prevented from entering Asgard, even though he can pray to Odin. (I think we can safely ignore the non0-Kirby issues where he can visit Asgard at will). Thor is thus just like the Christian view of mortality, born into a limited world, unable to see heaven, but able to pray. He vaguely remembers a better time, but is alone here. Loneliness is a big theme of Thor's life on Earth: Blake was the kind of American who would wander alone in Norway, and his only friend is the nurse who has to work with him. In this issue Blake/Thor is like a teenage boy discovering girls for the first time. Perhaps the stone story is a metaphor for giving way to the things of the Earth? Can we go as far as seeing the ending in the ocean as a symbol for being free? Reflections on mortality
If the dialog (including the newspaper headline in the art) is to be believed, the scientist's motivation is immortality. I tend to think that, yes, this was Kirby's intention. it's a constant theme in Kirby's work, but does not seem to figure as much if at all in Stan Lee's. And it fits perfectly with theme of an immortal being trapped on Earth. This reminds me of Wordsworth's famous poem. I include it here just to show that these ideas are widespread, and not limited to ancient myths or fanboys; over active imaginations: That could describe Thor. ConclusionI list this as the third of Thor's great tests. This is a triumphant issue in my opinion, Kirby at his best. I have tried to suggest why he might have chosen certain elements, but I don't think any of that was conscious. We do not know what goes on in our unconscious mind as we make our decisions: that's the point of the unconscious. All we can go on here is the art, and the story it tells. Kirby's stories are so full, so rich with ideas, whereas other writers' Thor stories are not, in my opinion. So I cannot believe that these elements are accidental Looking forward to next issue!
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 23, 2016 17:07:07 GMT -5
Totally agree about the New Gods. It's clear that this is probably what Kirby would have done with Thor if he had complete creative control and didn't have to worry about maintaining an IP. As much as Kirby loved classic mythology, it's clear that he was fascinated with concept of combining godlike beings with advanced technologies to create something new and relevant for our modern technological age: Galactus, The Celestials, The New Gods, etc. Which, again, is very Manga. I really need to figure out if and of the big Manga creators list Kirby as an influence.. certainly not in art style (where it can't be more opposite), but story wise for sure. I never made that connection (perhaps because of the art), but it's pretty clear now that I think of it. It's too bad business concerns got in the way.. it seems like with all the creative flow of 60s Marvel, someone could have figured out how to let Kirby do his thing and still keep the Marvel universe flowing! |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 23, 2016 19:28:49 GMT -5
Marvel could have allowed Kirby to do it simply by setting The New Gods "far in the future."
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 24, 2016 12:19:49 GMT -5
I forgot to link this at the start: Kirby Without Words: a blog that does what I am doing here, but with other comics too. He is not the first person to notice the difference between Kirby's art and Lee's dialog, but his blog is probably the best overview. One of his recent posts was on Journey into Mystery 119, if you want to jump ahead  |
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Post by coinilius on Aug 25, 2016 7:07:02 GMT -5
Thanks for the link to that fascinating blog!
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 13, 2016 10:32:34 GMT -5
Here I am in my new house, in the middle of a forest, so it's time to revisit Thor! We get regular visits from some local crows, and i like to think they are distant cousins of Huginn and Muninn, Odin's raven spies. As usual these are just initial impressions from a single read through. So my apologies if I make silly mistakes, or some reviews are in depth and others are superficial. Most of my attention these days is on making my computer game, so I can make no promises about frequency or quality of posts! Thoughts on Tales of Asgard
I may have suggested this before, but I wonder if Kirby created Tales of Asgard specifically because Lee was less likely to change those stories? Each TofA can be seen as a commentary on the main story, giving the bigger picture that is not obvious in the dialog. For example: The text in JiM110 focuses on Cobra and Hyde. But the bigger picture (I think) is that Odin is training Thor in how to live with his Don Blake identity. Then what do we see in ToA? Odin training humans to be more godlike, by allowing himself to appear weak. This ToA has Odin let others apparently dupe him. This is such an obvious parallel with the main story, where Odin appears duped by Loki, and where Thor has problems that Odin could easily fix. The parallels are even in the details, like the dramatic path across the fire swamp (see JiM 111). it seems to me there are a lot of parallels like this: the ToA story gives the meaning of the main story: it's usually the same theme, but more Kirby and less Lee, in my view. Enough intro, on with the reviews! |
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 13, 2016 10:43:43 GMT -5
Journey into Mystery 109: gratuitous crossover
(Marvel Database details)Tales of Asgard
I mentioned how (in my view) Tales of Asgard story reflect the main story, giving the idealised version of the main story. "As above, so below." This issue (like those either side of it) is a good examples. In one of the tales, Thor goes among men in order to save them. In another, Thor is banished from Asgard, but it is all part of Odin's plan to escape destruction. This is exactly what I have argued is the main story: Thor has become half human in order to hide among men, so something of the gods can survive Ragnarok. The main story adds the detail (due to Lee's insistence that Thor act more like a superhero, see below) that by taking on human form, Thor also takes on human weakness, and he has to learn to be godlike again. If we see heaven as an abstract concept, an ideal, then this two-sided storytelling is particularly pleasing: we are seeing a story on Earth, and then seeing its message in an idealised, timeless form, the underlying morality tale. A very nice touch. Magneto, at Lee's requestThere is no compelling story need for Thor to meet Magneto here. In fact Thor was not needed at all: he didn't prevent Magneto lifting those cars, and in the end Magneto's plot was solved by the X-Men. here I will argue that Kirby did not want magneto, but it was a requirement handed down by Lee. I have argued here and elsewhere that Kirby and Lee have dramatically different writing styles, so much that it is relatively simple to separate them. To those of us who love Kirby's writing it's as easy as "if it's good it's Kirby, if it's bad it's Lee". But a more diplomatic way to put it is to compare their solo work. We can probably agree that Kirby created epic, god-like plots, and Lee preferred conventional villains and love interests. We can come to the same conclusion by comparing their interviews, or examining places where the dialog clearly contradicts the art, or looking at their attitude to salesmanship. It al tells a consistent story. Lee goes for whatever sells the most, whereas Kirby goes for epic themes with the maximum power. So when we see that the Magneto story is a conventional villain from another title, and that the Magneto story does not progress the long term plot, it has Lee written all over it. Whereas the way that Thor responds fits well into the long term theme (of a god with human weaknesses) so that shouts Kirby. Kirby and human weaknesses
I just said that Kirby provided the human weaknesses. "But wait", I hear you cry, "surely that is Lee's hallmark?" I disagree. Lee made his characters think like the audience, but not weak. That's a big difference. Take the Jane Foster love story for example. This is clearly Lee's idea, and is avery human thing: male hero, female assistant, of course she will be attractive, and of course they will fall in love. But Love is not a weakness. Even for a superhero it is not a weakness, it just makles them relatable. However, if Kirby is telling the story of a god who must rescue groups of people (all gods in Asgard, all humans in Asgard, all humans on Earth, etc), then too much focus on one human IS a weakness. So the weakness comes from Kirby's godly focus, not from Lee's reader focus. We see the same principle in the Fantastic Four. It is very clear that Lee likes his male heroes to be always heroic. Frequently Kirby would draw Sue and Reed as equals, and Lee would add dialog making Sue submissive to Lee. Or Kirby would draw Reed making a bonehead mistake (like opening the negative zone to stop the sandman, but that released Blastaar) but Lee's dialog would not give the lightest hint that this was Reed's fault. So Lee liked Thor and Reed to be infallible (any "mistakes" would be very short lived), but it was Kirby who made them fallible. (Whether this applied to Spider-man is a different question, as Ditko gave the character such an indelible stamp of making mistakes. Here I'm just discussing the more Kirby style heroes) So Magneto was almost certainly mandated by Lee, in an effort to increase the relatively poor sales of the X-Men. But despite this ignominious plot origin, Kirby's art shows the long term themes of the book, themes we cannot attribute to Lee: Thor is under-performing
The central crisis happens because of Thor's carelessness: allowing himself to turn mortal. Also notice the initial hunt for Magneto: powerful though he is, hiding in a submarine puts Magneto in a class below the global threats that Thor should be facing. Compare Thor's struggle here with his triumph in the previous issue's Tales of Asgard where Thor is far more capable and impressive. The Thor-Blake relationship
On the surface, Thor-Blake is just a routine secret identity. After all, they share the same thoughts, must change in secret, etc. But when we compare this Thor to the Tales of Asgard Thor, we see a big difference: Blake is not just a disguise, but actually weakens Thor. But Lee's dialog hides this. Kirby wanted to move more quickly
As far as I can tell (based on the use of Loki, how Kirby moved off world as soon as Lee became too busy to be much involved, and and what I have heard from Kirby experts) Kirby wanted Thor to be off world, having adventures in Asgard. But Lee felt that adventures on Earth would be easier to sell. So a Kirby-only Thor would have perhaps much less time to leave Earth, instead of the two or three years the comic actually took. Thor without Lee: the timeline
How quickly would Thor have left the Earth if Lee had not kept him earth bound? The only other Kirby stories I know well are the FF and Captain Victory. In both cases it took a year for the comics to tell the story of their change of heart. Captain Victory has around 12 issues where he ponders the meaning of life, before his "happy ever after" finale. And I have elsewhere argued that the first eight issues of the FF show them leaving Earth for cosmic adventures, but Lee reigned Kirby in, and the stories become more earth bound with issue 9. (The first 8 issues took just over a year, due to issues 1-6 being bi-monthly sales) So my guess is that, if Kirby had his way, both the FF and Thor would have reached their cosmic phase after a bout a year, instead of waiting for 1965 when Lee became too busy to be much involved in plotting. Conclusion
So it seems that Lee's influence changed the Thor-Blake relationship in the following two ways: 1. A story about man becoming godlike is sold as a conventional superhero with secret identity. 2. The process of becoming god-like took three years instead of one. the extra padding was mainly stories with Cobra, Hyde, and crossovers with other Marvel characters. The long term theme of Thor: "If he is worthy"
So Thor under performs because he lets himself be too human. This is an epic theme: the god being human, the human needing to be god. It is the oldest theme in the world: our need to do better. comes more human, with human weaknesses and interests. Thor wants to come and go between heaven and Earth, but he is not yet worthy: Odin will not let him into Asgard until he has shaped up. Becoming worthy is perhaps the central theme of Thor: can man become god? This is also a central theme of the 1960s in the real world: mankind reached space, and the "death of God" movement reached its peak. Were men becoming as gods? Were gods becoming as men? Other points to note
I note that Blake goes home to Jane, they act as lovers, and she cooks him dinner. They are not married. Did the comics code notice?
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 13, 2016 10:46:17 GMT -5
By the way, CCF seems to add in two line breaks whenever I add one. That isn't me! Maybe it reckons the poor reader needs a breather between paragraphs |
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 13, 2016 11:03:18 GMT -5
Journey into Mystery 110: Odin trains Thor
(Marvel Database)This is a two parter where Odin trains Thor. (Note the comparison with the Tales of Asgard where Odin holds back in order to train people to be more godlike) Thor and Loki compared
I discussed before how Jane is a problem: Thor is a god, he is supposed to act on a godlike scale, saving millions of people. But spending time with Jane means he is busy saving one person he is not reaching his potential. Note the contrast with Loki, another who does not reach his potential: Thor has the quality (he cares for the heart) but not he quantity (he thinks small). Loki has the quantity (he thinks big) but not the quality (he does not care for the heart). The TofA in 112 will deal with the birth of Loki. Without Lee's addition of Cobra and Hyde, this comic would more clearly be about Thor and Loki a tale of two half brothers. Not allowed in Asgard
Here again we see Thor is not allowed in Asgard. This is one of many evidences that Stan has no idea what is going on in these plots: when Jack was away, Thor was seen in Asgard as if he could come and go as he pleased. This is something I saw a lot in the FF as well: Stan had only a vague idea of the plot. The famous 1967 newspaper article was a perfect example: when a reporter visited, Stan put on a show of plotting the FF. This is often used as proof that Stan plotted the stories. But I think it shows the opposite: Stan had no idea what was going on, e.g. thinking the surfer was away in space, whereas the whole point of the surfer was he was trapped on Earth. And Stan's suggestion for that issue (Thing versus Surfer) interrupted the otherwise smooth flow of the Wakanda storyline. In my opinion we see this time and again, that Stan was unaware of the plot, and would simply suggest ideas that did not fit, then wrote dialog that often contradicted the art. (I did warn you that this thread would be unashamedly pro Kirby!) But I digress. Why Cobra and Hyde again?
Cobra and Hyde are not important to the story: Any threat could have served the same purpose . E.g. a falling building, plague, etc. This suggests to me that the plot did not have them in mind, but Lee required them. Then why add them? I think this is Lee's commercial instinct coming in. And not just because Lee invented them and felt more comfortable with familiar superhero tropes and was less comfortable with mythology and the epic literary form. Jack's story seems to have a definite direction. As far as I can see, Thor is being trained, ready for Ragnarok . Both "training and Ragnarok are once-only ideas. The story has an end in sight. This is not good for long term sales! Kirby's instinct was to tell a story then tell a completely new story (though I argue that they are linked thematically). But Lee's instinct was the opposite: if it sells, do more of it! So Stan created Cobra and Hyde, villains with no sell-by date: they can come back forever. The more he can tie them into Thor, the longer he can sell Thor. Jack thinks story, Stan thinks sales. Another possible reason is a real world power play. If. as I argue, Jack created Thor, this is a problem as the stories become more popular. What if Jack ever left and made trouble? So the more involved Stan is, the more that he creates characters as well, the better it is for the company. Stan was a company man to the bone, and it worked well for him. And for Marvel, if sales are any guide. A final reason could be cognitive dissonance. when Stan and Jack have their plotting sessions, Stan seems to be mainly editing Jack's ideas. But Stan thinks of himself as a writer, as the top line creator. So he would want to inject his own creations as often as possible. Which means Cobra and Hyde again and again. Odin training Thor
Stan's dialog focuses on Cobra and Hyde, who do not matter (see above). But the art and the issue by issue context shows that Odin is training Thor: As a god, Thor needs to solve single person problems in seconds, so he can focus on global problems . But still his mind is on earthly things like being a doctor, and a single hostage can stop him. This is unacceptable for a god! So Odin puts him in a position where he has to up his game. Note the implied rebuke in JiM 111 by solving the problem with a healer. Thor is wasting his time with earth medicine, when Asgard medicine is far more advanced. If he REALLY wants to heal people, Don Blake would put Thor first Every. Single. Time. Thor's weakness, and Loki in a new light
We are used to seeing Loki as the bad guy, but Thor is just as ungodly (see above). The whole Thor comic series is about Thor rising to his potential. Just as we humans must all improve our game. In Tales of Asgard 112 we will be given the opportunity to see things from Loki's point of view: watch this space!
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 13, 2016 12:34:04 GMT -5
By the way, CCF seems to add in two line breaks whenever I add one. That isn't me! Maybe it reckons the poor reader needs a breather between paragraphs That happens to me whenever I copy and past anything in.. not idea why, but I thought you'd like to know it's not you . Great stuff as always.. really enjoying your analysis! In keeping with your training analysis.. couldn't Cobra be seen as an easy Midgard Serpent, and Hyde and easy Frost Giant? |
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 13, 2016 16:07:08 GMT -5
couldn't Cobra be seen as an easy Midgard Serpent, and Hyde and easy Frost Giant? Love it! If I was reading this like I read the Fantastic Four, trying to make different writers fit together seamlessly, that would be perfect. Especially because it always bugs me when Hyde is shown as extra large, because in the original novel he was conspicuous for being short. But as a Hagrid style half giant, that would really work. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 19:07:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the link to that fascinating blog! Yeah, thanks from me too; Kirby Without Words was very fascinating! .... I am a bit late to this thread, but it certainly is an interesting viewpoint tolworthy ... not one I necessarily agree with, but it's been fun reading it with my cup of tea. Carry on... |
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 17, 2016 16:15:30 GMT -5
Journey into Mystery 111: the power of groups(See the Marvel Database for cover, story summary, etc)Overview: what drama!
What a dramatic story! This is why love Kirby's Thor. The art, and the story it tells, is breathtaking. That cover, Odin's dream sequence, Baldar sending bis sword and catching it again, are unforgettable. It's beautiful stuff. A historic issue: united we stand
This is a watershed issue because it shows the gods at last working as a team: Baldar saves Thor. This is what Thor needs to learn: he is wasted on Earth, but with the other gods he can do anything! This is one of those big real world themes that raises this above simple escapism. It's a message about being better individuals, and working with others, particularly with our family. The next issue is an even bigger milestone in the story of mankind and the gods... but let's not get ahead of ourselves! The cover with no dialog:
The cover says that no words can do it justice. But I don't think this is a joke. If we look at Lee's dialog on the covers, it deals with simple conflicts, especially with name checked characters (e.g. Cobra, Hyde, Magneto, etc). But how do you dialog a story about Baldar and time stopping and Odin holding back in order to train Thor? I don't think Stan would plot a story like that. I think he had no dialog on the cover because he could not think what to write. I see this as yet more evidence that Stan did not plot these The dream sequence
It's hard to say how far Lee changed Kirby's story, but one sequence stands out as highly suspicious: the sequence where Odin thinks of two lovers. Here it is without Stan's dialog, together with some Tales of Asgard art that I'll get to:  What's odd about this sequence:First, look at the amount of text crammed into the last three frames (the dream sequence and where it is described). Kirby was a visual storyteller. it makes no sense to have a two frame dream sequence that requires a ton of explanation. It seems unlikely to me that Kirby intended so much text. Second, look at Stan's text (if you have the original comics): the first frame supposedly introduces a major character (Odin's wife) who is not seen before or since, and is not even given a name. The second frame introduces a major event and location, "their last rise over the enchanted chasm" that is similarly never seen before or since. This to me is bad story telling, and screams "changing the story". Third, the lover is facing away from Odin, and perhaps looking sad. If this is the one frame that introduces two lovers then they should surely be looking into each others eyes.? Fourth, this is so out of character: it has Odin being powerless, and Baldar as the trickster and Loki arguing for honesty! Something is wrong here. Now imagine the art without the text, and we perhaps see a different story: The Sif theory
Odin is thinking about an innocent faced woman with huge blg hairdo. There is not enough text space for this to be a new character, and she looks like Sif from issue 102. This explains Baldar's presence. According to issue 102, Sif is Baldar's sister. Sif of course is Thor's wife in the legends. The strange shaped flowers in her hair and her extra bulky two shouldered cloak might be a reminder of Thor's costume, or might be coincidence. Sif is sad, because Thor has left her for Earth, and is spending time with another woman. Odin is far behind her, because he is either unwilling or unable to help: this has to be. The next frame shows Sif leading a male warrior. If this was Odin, wouldn't Odin be leading? And the art looks like it symbolises destiny: it looks like the woman is leading to her destiny. So this is a woman we should expect to see later, triumphant in some way. Odin is literally behind her all the way. The clouds and stars and upward journey suggest hope: one day Thor will be worthy of her. It is possible that the male figure is Thor himself: the winged helmet might be ambiguous in the pencils, I don't know. But for now I conclude that this is Odin thinking about Sif and her destiny to be with Thor. T ales of Asgard: Sigurd
Once again the Tale of Asgard reflects the themes of the main story. Sigurd, like the Greek giant Antaeus, is an enemy who cannot be defeated as long as he is on the Earth. So the only way for Thor to triumph is to take the battle off the Earth. This will happen soon enough. I mentioned my theory that Thor is given a human disguise, and the power is put in the hammer, as a way for something of the gods to survive Ragnarok. This would also explain Thor's need to go off world in later issues: as long as he is not permanently based in Asgard he has a chance to survive. Later he will explore other galaxies and learn of evolution. This is exactly what he needs to do if faced with the end of his world: he needs to find another home, and how to re-create his species. HealingLast issue I suggested that Odin is training Thor, to improve his game. Thor should not need more than five minutes to beat lightweights like Cobra and Hyde, and he should not be stopped by one human hostage. As mentioned before, Thor's excuse for not embracing his divine role is that he likes being a doctor. He can use the excuse "but the humans need my human skill". But this is self deception. This story reminds us that Asgardian medicine is far beyond anything humans can do: if Thor really cares about medicine he will embrace his destiny. Physician, heal thyself! Footnote: the dimensional barrier power
At first it might seem hokey for Thor to create a dimensional barrier. But we know the gods can journey to Asgard, and humans cannot. So dimensional barriers are part of their normal skill set. Having time more at different speeds is routine for other dimensions (see relativity, Narnia, the Christian idea that "a thousand years to us is like a day to God", etc. Next: Thor finally chooses to be a god!
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 18, 2016 4:35:53 GMT -5
Journey into Mystery 112: Thor finally makes his choice. PLUS the origin of Loki!
(Marvel Database for cover, summary, etc)A must-have milestone
This is quite the classic issue! Not just the definitive Hulk-Thor fight, not just Thor finally realising that Odin is right, but the origin of Loki! And Odin's defeat of the giants! The art is fascinating. Not just the superb fight sequences, but (in ToA) Odin wearing Thor's helmet and hammer. Confirming that yes, Thor is his intended heir. Ah, the nostalgia
I remember this story fondly from an old UK Marvel annual. I think it was one of the 1960s Power Comic annuals, with large pages and thick paper. Giving this the attention it deserves. The Thor-Hulk story is a real standalone feast. Plus an excellent reminder of the days when Stan's continuity made comics better: with this and other issues of the time you can work out exactly where Thor was at every point between Avengers 3 and 4 (I think). Back then the characters felt real: they existed in real locations in real time, and when there was a gap you could legitimately ask "what did Thor do then?" and you can guarantee it was something good. And important. Ah, those were the days. OK, back to Stan-bashing. Er, I mean, back to the careful and objective analysis. Another forced crossover
This looks like another forced crossover. As with the Avengers and Cobra and X-men issues, the guest star is interchangeable (any threat would have done). It does not move the bigger story along. We do not even have the implied pay off: we never learn who is the strongest. The whole purpose of this story seems to be to respond to fan requests (as made explicit at the start) so I think this is a rare case where the main plot was purely Stan's idea, rather than the usual meeting where they come up with ideas - ahem - "together". And yet, Kirby being Kirby, we get a superb and satisfying story. I assumed just now that the continuity aspect must be from Stan. But can we be sure? Kirby spent far longer on each issue than Lee did, and most of the continuity it told through art, so maybe Kirby had more to do with early Marvel continuity than I give him credit for. The turning point: Thor is thinking
Despite this issue being a gratuitous money grab, Kirby's art moves the bigger story forward, purely through the art: through body language: this story is all about Thor brooding. Next issue we will see this brooding begin to bare fruit. In the previous issue we saw how Thor is under-performing, and Odin and company want Thor to do better. Throughout this issue's art it looks like Thor is coming to the same conclusion. he sits, brooding, thinking of how he is wasting his time. What was the point of fighting the Hulk? The other Avengers could have done it. Heck, even Rick Jones can beat the hulk (as we saw at the end of the similar slug fest in Fantastic Four 26, where Rick slipped a gamma tablet into the Hulk's mouth). I think the last panel is the key. The final panelThe final Thor panel is intriguing: Thor says he has learned a lesson. For once, Lee does not add excess words. So I wonder if these words are what Kirby intended? The art seems to say so. So this is where Thor decides that he must literally rise above these petty battles. In a nice piece of framing we see Thor, noble, in the sky. And underneath, the bottom row of panels shows the Hulk below him, on (and partially under) the ground. The noble god moves upward while the savage human moves downwards. it's beautiful symbolism: comic art at its best. I fully expect the next issues to begin the move beyond Earth. Though given that Lee wants Thor on Earth, I expect this will be a process covering at least a year. Tales of Asgard: the birth of Loki
In the story we see that all the giants were killed, yet one child unexpectedly survives, hidden, so the giants' DNA survives, albeit in a smaller form. This is an obvious parallel with my theory that Thor was sent to Earth in human form so that the gods could survive Ragnarok. "As above, so below." And that brings us to the end of Essential Thor Volume One What a ride! So much power in such deceptively simple stories! What unsurpassed value! Next, Volume Two, what most people consider to be the golden age of Thor.
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 18, 2016 5:10:22 GMT -5
Journey into Mystery 113: changes to the art?
(Marvel Database)Asgard at last!!
Last issue we saw Thor finally accept his role among the gods. And this issue starts with a dramatic scene of Thor leading a ship in battle! At last! For the first time! (Other than the Tales of Asgard, which reminded us of what Thor's existence pre-Don Blake) I think Lee does not understand the story
Lee's text on the splash page text, concerning Thor in Asgard, says "this doesn't have much to do with the main part of the story". Yet this *IS* the main part of the story: Thor in his rightful place at last! But on page 3 we see that Thor wants it both ways. He wants Asgard, but he also still wants to maintain his small-minded, pointless, wasteful life on Earth. He is like an addict who recognises the need to come clean, but still wants to keep his drug. He is the married man (he is married to Sif) who wants to come home, but still wants his mistress (Foster). I call this "Small-minded" because it is unethical for Thor to waste his power with Jane Foster when he should be saving worlds (or worse, becoming Thor and then Jane would be a dazzled groupie). "Pointless" because all Thor's Earthly battles could be handled by the Avengers. And if the Avengers need more power they can just make another Iron Man suit. "Wasteful" because anything he achieves on Earth, e.g. in medicine, could be done better using Asgardian technology. Thor creates his own problem
The Grey Gargoyle story is also "the main part of the story" as it is a problem created by Thor's weakness. Previously, Blake defeated GG by sending him off to sea, where he would sink into the mud. But Blake obviously did not tell the authorities, probably because that would risk revealing his relationship with Foster. So his mistaken attachment to Foster means this deadly menace returns. And the menace is only concerned with finding Thor: again, Thor creates his own problems. The return of the Gargoyle is a story of Thor's folly. Lee versus Kirby
Lee's story is simple. Odin wants Thor in Asgard. Thor does not want to, but wants Jane Foster instead. Kirby's story is more subtle: Thor wants BOTH Asgard and Foster. This is superficially the same as Lee's version, except this is not a story of "the man chooses the woman he loves". It is a story of "the man cannot face his responsibilities: he chooses his mistress, not his wife" The wife and the mistress
Thor and Sif are essentially equals. Both are divine. Sif is not impressed by Thor's muscles or his confidence, as every god has that. She is only impressed when he goes beyond that. But Jane Foster is not a goddess. So she is much easier to please. Even when Thor is in his Don Blake form, he has supreme confidence, and that dazzles Jane. Probably his skill at surgery is part of the Asgardian package as well. So Thor/Blake loves the easy life: using his Asgardian heritage to get an adoring woman who will do anything for him. We recently saw her make him dinner: I think we can safely assume she does more than that. This explains this issue's story. Thor has decided he wants to come home. Odin is happy. But Thor wants to keep his mistress. Odin cannot allow that. And when Thor wants to use his full Asgardian power to impress Foster, Odin definitely cannot allow that. Changes to the art?
It looks to me like two of the images in this issue were altered, but I could be wrong. The panels in question are on pages 3 and 4. The context is important. Thor just had his first taste of Asgard, and obviously loves it. Then he returns to Earth and is sad. Stan's dialog makes it look like his decision, but the art seems to tell a different story. There are only two parts of the art that support Stan's dialog, and they both look oddly drawn to me, as if added later:  In the first picture, Odin raises his arms to rage against Thor. But this is out of character: This makes Odin seem weak, unable to get his way. But Kirby's Odin is never weak! The arms look wrong to me, and the body does not fit the arms. In fact, the body looks better without the arms. And the fact that the body is in silhouette makes me doubly suspicious. Think back to the similar pose I posted with JiM 111, the dream sequence, when the woman (who I think is Sif) has her back to the man (Odin?). Here we have parallel imagery. The focus is on the person at the front, and the powerful man at the back must just accept it. "Arms down" works, "arms up" does not work. In my opinion. In the second picture, Blake smiles when he meets Foster. But it's a weird looking smile. His eyes don't smile, and every other image shows him looking very serious. To my eyes, these are changed in order to make this Thor's decision, but all the other art suggests it's Odin's doing and Thor just has to accept it. But for Stan, the male hero always has to be the winner, so I can see why he would override Kirby's story. Throwing food
"But wait" you say, if Odin raising his arms is out of character, how do I explain him throwing his food a few pages later? I think they are different things. One is a threat, the other is an act of judgment. When you raise your fists to an opponent you are threatening him, showing your potential for violence. Odin does not need to do that - his power is never in doubt. Does the president of the United States need to rise his fists when an employee refuses to obey? But when Odin refused the food it was judgement: his servants thought he wanted food. Can't they see that he has more important things on his mind than to waste time feasting? Odin's sadness
How then do I explain Odin's raised fist on the next page? Ignore Stan's dialog, look at Jack's art. The other hand is open, powerless. Odin is in a lower position than Loki, so this is not a statement of power. Odin's face does not show anger, but perhaps sadness? I asked my wife (a non comic reader) how she interpreted that frame, and she said it looked like triumph. Which is another interesting possibility. But is not anger. Tales of Asgard: Loki's childhood
This issue gives another contrast between Stan and Jack: the role of Loki. Why does Odin keep Loki around, as in Stan's story Loki is always the cause of problems. How stupid is Odin, exactly? But if we reject the "stupid Odin" hypothesis a much richer story appears. In this issue we learn of Loki's childhood. Lee's dialog makes Loki look shallow and spiteful. But take away the dialog, and what do we see? One child is the son of gods, the heir to the kingdom. Naturally he is clever and confident and strong. The other child is the runt of the giants, he has no natural advantages. He grows up seeing Thor win at everything. And he is the last survivor of his species (the giants), feeling very weak and vulnerable, surrounded by the people who killed your family and your people. What would you do in the circumstances? So Loki uses magic to get an advantage. (Remember, this is from the art, not the simplistic dialog.) And that makes Loki a villain? Now look again at the main story... Loki and Thor compared
In the main story we see Thor in the same position as Loki. As Don Blake he is weak. He canot get what he wants: free access to Asgard. So he wants to break the rules and use magic. (Turning into Thor in front of Jane Foster, which is forbidden.) Put yourself in Loki's shoes
We are used to thinking of Thor as the good guy, and Loki as the bad guy. But only because Thor has all the natural advantages. While in Asgard, Thor benefits from playing the hero, and doing The Right Thing, because it makes people admire and support him. But take him away from Asgard, remove his natural advantages, and he cheats just like Loki would. This raises the question, what if the previous issue's Tales had ended differently? What if the giants had not been killed by Odin? What if the giants had won? Loki was the royal son. What if the giants had found Thor as a baby? He would be growing up in a foreign culture where his natural abilities might not have been valued. Loki would be the adored one who fit in nd naturally won. Thor would be the one using his magic to cheat. Seen in this way, Odin is not stupid. He does not keep Loki around out of foolishness, but because Loki reminds them that other people and cultures exist. In trying to become ruler, Loki is just doing what any culture does when faced with a stronger culture: trying to survive. Loki's efforts keep the gods on their toes. He keep them alert and thus healthy. Hints of Ragnarok
I just asked "what if the giants had won"? Remember that this was a real possibility. Norse gods are not superheroes who always win in the end. Their myths all point to Ragnarok, where eventually they will lose. Loki survived the giant's own Ragnarok, by being hidden in a corner. It is my thesis that Thor is hidden ion Earth (or later allowed to range the galaxy) for exactly the same reason: so that some part of the gods can survive their final destruction. Do I read too much into this?
Why do I insist that Kirby's art shows a different, deeper story? Because Lee's dialog makes no sense. His dialog makes Odin all-powerful, all-knowing and all-wise, yet frustrated and angry at his inability to control his son! And so stupid (or malicious) that he keeps Loki around just to cause evil. And we are to believe that Lee knows all the names and relationships in the Norse legends, except for the one that matters: that Sif is married to Thor. And whereas the Norse legends all have a direction (gods grow up, gods finally die) Lee's dialog shows a simplistic story that repeats forever (Thor versus Loki, Thor wants Jane, Odin is frustrated, repeat, repeat, repeat). To me, Lee's dialog and his choices range from "makes no sense" to "why should anybody care?" But Lee's dialog is perfect for short term cash flow: simple, familiar ideas he can repeat forever. Lee's job was to make money from comics, a medium he didn't care for (he wanted to leave in 1961, and finally DID leave soon after Kirby left Marvel). Kirby did what Kirby did (create stories), and Lee did what Lee did, persuade kids to spend money. Jack Kirby was not Stan Lee. Jack Kirby knew the classic legends. His stories were packed with new ideas. His fights show that he thought carefully about every frame. His solo work shows that he was obsessed with big ideas, with power struggles, with discovering the unknown. Kirby's stories go somewhere. Kirby's stories make sense. Those are the stories I am attempting to recover.
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