I agree. We have to work in the real world. In the real world, Kirby on his own was too "out there" and could not sell for more than a year or so. But Lee (and Simon and others) sugared the pill and enabled Kirby to create multi year epics. I think we can still uncover what Kirby was trying to do, more or less, so we have the best of both worlds. Just call me Dr Pangloss.

Overview of Thor up to this point

Journey Into Mystery (JiM) 97 is generally remembered as the start of the "good" Thor issues. But when we focus on the art (and ignore the non-Kirby issues) I think the story was consistent and powerful from the start. We move very quickly toward Ragnarok. Rather than the surface appearance, interminable stories in search of a purpose, Kirby had just four issues (split into eight) where he quickly got us up to speed ready for Ragnarok:

Four issues of intro ( =  two full length issues)
JiM 83: origin
JiM 84: global turmoil
JiM 85: Loki
JiM 86: Thor is fully powered up

Four issues of preparation for battle ( = two)
JiM 87: What is his mission?
JiM 88: it's about Loki and the hammer
JiM 89: no more humans: this is a god's work
JiM 93: demi-god versus demi-god

And now the first rumblings of Ragnarok!
JiM 97: Surtur and the gods of Earth.

I pity the poor readers who had to wait a month to find out what happens next. Watch this space!

Journey into Mystery 101 = Lee and Kirby 101.

JiM 101 comes after another gap: the non-Kirby issues 98-100. This is late 1963, the explosion of the Marvel Universe, the busiest period of Kirby's life, when he's creating an insane number of characters and pages. Not even The King can be in two places at once, so he's pulled away to get new titles up to speed. In his absence Stan invents the Cobra and Mr Hyde. These two characters would be fine in, say, Daredevil, but are totally out of place in Thor. We can see Kirby's frustration in this issue. Thor is incredibly frustrated and angry, and spends the first pages of the story looking back over lame characters and enduring lame crossovers and romances, usually in flashback.

For the record, I don't think "The Avengers" was Kirby's idea. Sure, he was put on it to make it sell, but I don't see the care, or effort, or reason for existing that I see in Thor or the FF. The whole idea of the Avengers seems to be to purely sell more books. That is Stan's goal: sell, sell, sell! I think that Lee deserves credit for both the Marvel Universe as we know it, and the Avengers, now at its heart.

Back to JiM 101. Just look at the splash page. Here is a guy who kicks a chunk out of a lamp post simply by brushing against it. And the Cobra was supposed to be a threat? If I was Kirby I'd be seething too.

Back and forth: separating the Lee and Kirby elements

It is clear from Kirby's solo work (and from Tales of Asgard, see previous entry) that Kirby and Lee have different visions. But Kirby draws these stories after a meeting with Lee, and Lee has the final say. If Lee says "Thor meets the Avengers" then Thor has to meet the Avengers. No matter how it might conflict with what Kirby wants to do. Then Stan dialogs the finished result, pulling it back in line with his experience of what sells books. Lee knows that the audience is still primarily children. So in this thread I am trying to separate three elements:

1. Lee's plot idea (e.g. meet Avengers, ask Odin for permission to marry)
2. Kirby's art (Avengers barely get a few frames, Thor battles Heimdall and loses)
3. Lees' dialog (Thor is lovesick, Odin depowers him)

The more I see of Kirby's work the easier I think it is to see where Kirby is pulling. Before Lee pulls him back. Readers of course can disagree.

Thor tries to enter Asgard

I am not convinced by this "halving of Thor's power" dialog. This is used as an excuse for Thor to be unable to get past Heimdall and enter Asgard. This is classic Stan Lee: he wants easy to understand stories. So his hero is always the strongest guy in the room. We see this again and again in the FF, where Mr Fantastic is portrayed as a natural leader, and Sue is shown as much weaker, whereas the art shows them as equals. But Kirby has fought in actual battles, and knows that a battle between equals, where the hero sometimes loses, is more exciting than a foregone conclusion. Sure, Heimdall is not Thor's equal overall. But Heimdall is empowered by Odin to defend the bridge: that is his specialism and that is what he can do.

Similarly, I am not convinced by the weak, pouting Thor who is upset that daddy won't let him go on a date. That is so NOT Thor. However, it is clear from the art that Thor has some disagreements with Odin. Thor wants to go to Asgard to settle these differences, but Odin wants him on Earth. This conflict arises naturally from the big plot: Odin placed him there and the plan is necessary as a way to survive or at least mitigate Ragnarok. Thor/Blake is caught between the two worlds, so it is only natural he would want to visit Asgard now. But Odin says no.

Time travel

What is really going on with the time travel part of the story? Obviously if we are building to a future event (Raganrok) then travelling to a time past that event is a good idea. And since the other gods are hiding in Asgard, Thor maybe figure he will have to create his own army on Earth. So a post-Ragnarok super-advanced robot is the obvious choice.

So when the future robots attack, it makes sense to go back to the future with them, both to fix the probe at its source and out of curiosity.  I can't speculate more without seeing how the art in this two part story develops. So... to be continued!

This is really fasinating stuff, Tolworthy... I'm not sure I totally agree with you, but you lay down a compelling and plausible story, that's for sure.

Journey into Mystery 103: Don and Jane


Plot: the enchantress tries to seduce Thor, but Thor passes the test



I apologise for only covering one aspect of this issue. So much to do, so little time! 

To me this issue is about Thor choosing his noble duty, not the pleasures of the flesh. I keep arguing that Thor does not want to marry Jane Foster, and the dialog keeps saying "please let me marry her!" But this thread is about the story without the dialog. it might help to compare the Kirby and non-Kirby issues:

Don and Jane, with and without Kirby

JiM 83-88: Thor's face betrays no love
JiM 89: humans are holding him back
JiM 90-92: NOT KIRBY: Don and Jane bicker and smile together as if they are flirting.
JiM 93: Kirby is back, and Don ignores her. He only looks in her direction once, in the last frame, when she is looking the other way.

So far, so what? She just isn't a major character. She is just there to contrast a mortal with the gods. 

JiM 94-96: NOT KIRBY: Jane barely features in 94-95. Then in 96 we get the "like a married couple" scenes again.

Again, no big deal.

JiM 97: Tales of Asgard begins, the story begins in earnest, and Kirby wastes no time in getting rid of Jane. She gets another job. Goodbye. 

JiM 98-100: NOT KIRBY: these issues are the clincher. I will not mince words. I think they are terribly written, with weak villains, embarrassing origins, embarrassing scenes, just awful. If you ever want proof of what Kirby brings to the writing then just read these issues. I could show numerous other examples like this. With Kirby: good comic. Kirby steps away, and all other elements remain the same: mediocre comic. To drive home my point, read the Kirby Tales of Asgard that follows. How can people not see the difference that Kirby makes to the writing?

OK, but let's ignore that. Hey, maybe you like villains who are bitten by radioactive cobras. Who am I to judge? Let's just look at what happens the moment that Kirby leaves: In JiM 98, Thor does his Superman-saving Lois thing, and Jane Foster begs him to let her come back. Oh but it gets worse. Believe me, much worse. JiM 98-99 are all about Don and Jane. In JiM 99 Thor is begging Odin to let him marry. The art and story reduce Odin to just being an ordinary guy, a dad who won't let his son marry his girlfriend. This reduces them both.  We see Don and Jane embrace, we see them on a date at a  restaurant, it's all about the romance. Again, compare the writing quality in the Tales of Asgard that follow. 

JiM 101-102: Kirby's Thor returns and he is not happy. We don't see Jane at all, except in angry flashback at the start. And look at the back up strip: it's about Thor rescuing Sif from hell! Symbolism, anyone? Anybody who has even glanced at the legends knows that Sif is Thor's WIFE. The story ends with Thor carrying Sif away on his horse: she is in his arms and they are in love (or so the art seems to say). But Stan Lee's dialog twice emphasises that Sif is Baldar's sister. Well maybe she is, the Edda does not say. But these are the norse legends, this is Thor coming of age and carrying off fair Sif, do we even need the dialog to see what is happening?

JiM 103: we are back to Don and Jane as friends. No hint of love in Kirby art, Jane is just a minor character, a friend. Their friendship matters, but I see no evidence in the art that they are more than friends. This contrasts with the non-Kirby art that seems in a hurry to get them married. 

That's as far as I've got in my reviews. I skimmed ahead to see if I would have to eat humble pie: maybe Thor 150 is the wedding issue? No: in Thor 136 Thor does finally take Jane to see Asgard, and they even try giving her god-like powers (to solve the ethical issue, see below). But it does not work. She can't hack it. She does not fit. Anybody who has read the legends knows why: Thor already has a wife and it isn't Jane.

Am I reading too much into this?

The Don-Jane romance is classic Stan Lee. Stan's approach to women was clear in the Fantastic Four. Whereas Kirby's characters arise naturally from the situations, and have their own identities (for example, in Kirby's FF art, Sue Storm is just as capable as Reed Richards, and Crystal was more so), Stan Lee's dialog gives women just one role: as love interest for men. Hence Stan's dialog would make Sue defer to Reed, and the moment that Kirby left, Stan got rid of Crystal and reduced Sue to fainting pretty much every issue. This is true with other writers aw well: we cannot blame this on the times, this was a specifically Stan Lee thing.  I discuss all of this with examples here.

So when I came to Thor it was all so familiar. Kirby created a minor character, a nurse, as a friend to Don Blake. Lee saw "it's a woman! There must be romance!" Because that's what women are for in comics. Apparently.

The final proof

Even if we dismiss the art as coincidence (after all, it's a small sample size), and if we dismiss Stan Lee's sexism as exaggerated (after all, there is certainly a friendship between Don and Jane), the final clincher for me is this: Thor wanting to marry Jane makes a bad story.

Why is it bad? All kinds of reasons: it's against the legends, it's unrealistic (gods don't do that), it's unethical (due to the power imbalance), it makes Thor look weak (a cardinal sin), it makes Odin look small and petty (almost as bad), and so on and so on. Even without that, it's a cliche and a dead end. If they marry, then what? What role does Jane then play? Eternal hostage? Redundant extra Thor? Forgotten? And if they don't, how long can we do the "will they won't they"? it gets tired really quickly. It's Superman and Lois Lane all over again, and for what? Isn't Marvel supposed to be better than that?

All my experience tells me that Jack Kirby does not produce bad stories like that.

Maybe I am kidding myself. Maybe I just refuse to see Kirby's duds. But I don't think I do, but even if I do, I choose to do so. I choose to interpret these stories in the best, biggest, most exciting way I can. I believe that all stories must be interpreted.

The idea that what we read is simply what the writer intended cannot be true: if it was, every writer who intended to write a hit would get a hit. But what they wrote is not what we read. We bring our own experience to it, our own understanding, every single time. That is inevitable and it is good: it is why literature works. it allows us to see more than the lines and words on the page, and build up a real world in our head. And this thread is about the Thor that I read. Your mileage may vary.

Journey into mystery 105-106: more pages! So let's celebrate!

Plot: a two issue battle with the Cobra and Mr Hyde.

The splash page declares this to be "a double length modern Marvel masterpiece" and sure enough, there is no third story: Journey into Mystery is now all Thor, all the time!

IIRC the change actually occurred last issue: the Frost Giant and Surtur story was too big for a regular 12 pager. But this is the issue they make a big deal of it.

This one is Stan's idea, I think

The previous year's two issue Hulk-Thing slugfest in the FF was a big fan favourite, so what better way to draw attention to the title? None of this Norse Myth stuff (no gods, giants, demons, etc), just wacky characters beating each other up for page after page. That, plus the opening with the Avengers, plus the fact that Cobra and Hyde are Stan's creations (Jack was not involved in those issues) makes me think that this two parter is definitely Stan's idea. It's just Kirby obeying orders and doesn't progress the epic story so I won't spend long on this review.

What Kirby brings to it

Having said that, it's fun to see Kirby's influence on the plot. When they first appeared (with no Kirby influence) Cobra and Hyde didn't make much sense. Their origins, their power level, their motivation, these were not subjects to dwell on. But Kirby manages to at least make them plausible threats. With Kirby they don't rely on physical strength but on technology, and Kirby tones down the less believable stuff: in the non-Kirby story Cobra had a bit of wire that was supposedly strong enough to bind Thor. But with Kirby it is simply used to distract and unbalance him. And in the first Hyde story, Hyde had the strength of "twelve men" yet that was enough to rip open any bank safe on Earth. (Bank robbers take note: all you need is twelve men and even Fort Knox will fall to your massive strength.) But here, Hyde's strength is simply used for breaking a machine that Hyde himself created, so that makes sense.

Summary

I love Kirby's creative ideas for technology: his stuff always does new and interesting things. A machine that replays events backwards, for example - an idea later developed in the FF for the beehive story. I was going to discuss how that might work, but this is supposed to be a short review

And of course the art is gorgeous. All in all this is a pleasant romp but does not really affect anything. However, next next issue is different: it's the Grey Gargoyle!

Definitely, judging by the Ragnarok subplot, comments of people around at the time, the art, etc. Here's CBR .

This is Ragnarok from Thor:

Here's the same story, in New Gods:

And so there isn't any doubt, here's where the New Gods discover Thor's helmet: