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Retcons
Oct 2, 2017 19:34:02 GMT -5
Post by badwolf on Oct 2, 2017 19:34:02 GMT -5
why didn't Loki ever express the same brotherly loathing for the Big B that he traditionally has for Thor? He did enjoy toying with him in Simonson's run... |
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Post by Dizzy D on Oct 3, 2017 7:08:07 GMT -5
Since Thor's mother was Gaea, Balder can at best be a half-brother. But if the God of Light is indeed a Son of Odin, why didn't Loki ever express the same brotherly loathing for the Big B that he traditionally has for Thor? And isn't it funny that in more than two decades of continuity (which is as far as my knowledge extends), the relationship was never alluded to once, not even in the first two Official Handbook series? I'm with RR: Retcon, I say! Retcon! Cei-U! I support my Canadian brutha! Thor was quite the bully as a child, so it's logical that Loki (one of his usual targets) felt loathing for him while the more gentle Baldur just got the general level of Loki-loathing. But I'm a mythology purist, so any change (dare I say... retcon?) of the original material, especially for no good reason, irks me. |
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Post by tingramretro on Oct 3, 2017 7:36:03 GMT -5
The term "retroactive continuity" itself only dates back to the late '70s. It was coined by Cat Yronwode in her CBG column and popularized by Roy Thomas, who adopted it to explain what he was doing with All-Star Squadron. I'm not sure where or when it got shortened to "retcon" but it had happened by the time I'd dropped out of comics in '86. Cei-U! I summon the etymology! Cei-U, To be honest with you, I really bothered by Roy Thomas contributions to All-Star Squadron and I felt that he was not the right man for this series and having said that I felt that his ideas not what it's seems. I felt that he confused me and someone here told me that Amazing Man is a Golden Age Character than a Silver Age Character of which I thought so. Boy, I've been had here and it's irks me greatly. You hadn't "been had". The misunderstanding was yours. Roy never once tried to claim that Amazing Man was anything other than a new character being inserted into WWII continuity; he wasn't Golden Age or Siver Age, and nobody ever pretended he was. Roy's All-Star Squadron was wonderful, IMO. You seem to blame writers for your own ignorance all too often, and it's hardly fair. |
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 3, 2017 8:04:12 GMT -5
Since Thor's mother was Gaea, Balder can at best be a half-brother. But if the God of Light is indeed a Son of Odin, why didn't Loki ever express the same brotherly loathing for the Big B that he traditionally has for Thor? And isn't it funny that in more than two decades of continuity (which is as far as my knowledge extends), the relationship was never alluded to once, not even in the first two Official Handbook series? I'm with RR: Retcon, I say! Retcon! Cei-U! I support my Canadian brutha! Thor was quite the bully as a child, so it's logical that Loki (one of his usual targets) felt loathing for him while the more gentle Baldur just got the general level of Loki-loathing. But I'm a mythology purist, so any change (dare I say... retcon?) of the original material, especially for no good reason, irks me.I see what you mean, but Marvel's Thor has generally had a tenuous link to the source material at best (Thor #200 notwithstanding). Just the idea that the title character is a dashing prince and not a boorish, easily duped boisterous drunkard is a pretty major reinterpretation! |
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Retcons
Nov 4, 2017 12:27:56 GMT -5
Post by Jesse on Nov 4, 2017 12:27:56 GMT -5
This may have been mentioned already but when exactly did they start to de-age Commissioner Gordon? When I grew up reading comics he was almost always depicted as having all grey or white hair. Eventually it would be brown with a little greying around the sideburns and I always felt that he was meant to look younger because he now was in the newer continuity. Did that start post-Crisis or was it something that occurred after Year One? More recently I think they retconned him as being even younger when he takes over as the GCPD version of Batman starting in Scott Snyder's Batman #41.
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Retcons
Nov 4, 2017 21:37:30 GMT -5
Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 4, 2017 21:37:30 GMT -5
This may have been mentioned already but when exactly did they start to de-age Commissioner Gordon? When I grew up reading comics he was almost always depicted as having all grey or white hair. Eventually it would be brown with a little greying around the sideburns and I always felt that he was meant to look younger because he now was in the newer continuity. Did that start post-Crisis or was it something that occurred after Year One? More recently I think they retconned him as being even younger when he takes over as the GCPD version of Batman starting in Scott Snyder's Batman #41. I assume it's because of Gotham (The TV show).... he's not nearly as much older then Bruce Wayner there as he had traditionally been in the comic. |
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Retcons
Nov 6, 2017 13:32:55 GMT -5
Post by mikelmidnight on Nov 6, 2017 13:32:55 GMT -5
To be honest with you, I really bothered by Roy Thomas contributions to All-Star Squadron and I felt that he was not the right man for this series and having said that I felt that his ideas not what it's seems. I felt that he confused me and someone here told me that Amazing Man is a Golden Age Character than a Silver Age Character of which I thought so. Boy, I've been had here and it's irks me greatly. They were either confused, or confused you. Roy is known for reusing obscure character names, and there WAS a character named Amazing Man in the 40s. But he's not the character who appeared in A*S. |
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Retcons
Nov 6, 2017 14:14:42 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 14:14:42 GMT -5
To be honest with you, I really bothered by Roy Thomas contributions to All-Star Squadron and I felt that he was not the right man for this series and having said that I felt that his ideas not what it's seems. I felt that he confused me and someone here told me that Amazing Man is a Golden Age Character than a Silver Age Character of which I thought so. Boy, I've been had here and it's irks me greatly. They were either confused, or confused you. Roy is known for reusing obscure character names, and there WAS a character named Amazing Man in the 40s. But he's not the character who appeared in A*S. I don't like retcons and never will ... they always confused me and thanks for clarifying it up for me. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 14:47:28 GMT -5
They were either confused, or confused you. Roy is known for reusing obscure character names, and there WAS a character named Amazing Man in the 40s. But he's not the character who appeared in A*S. I don't like retcons and never will ... they always confused me and thanks for clarifying it up for me. The Marvel (Captain America frozen in ice and recovered, Bucky dead) and DC (Golden Age heroes were comic stories read by the real Flash (Barry Allen etc. and then later on Earth 2) shared universes are founded on retcons, without them there is not super-hero comics as we know them today. When people disparage retcons, it means I don't like these changes, but they don't call changes they like retcons even when they are. If someone is going to issue a blanket statement I don't like retcons, they might as well say I don't like continuity based super-hero comics because they are part and parcel of the fabric of those stories. -M |
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Retcons
Nov 6, 2017 17:31:46 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 17:31:46 GMT -5
I don't like retcons and never will ... they always confused me and thanks for clarifying it up for me. The Marvel (Captain America frozen in ice and recovered, Bucky dead) and DC (Golden Age heroes were comic stories read by the real Flash (Barry Allen etc. and then later on Earth 2) shared universes are founded on retcons, without them there is not super-hero comics as we know them today. When people disparage retcons, it means I don't like these changes, but they don't call changes they like retcons even when they are. If someone is going to issue a blanket statement I don't like retcons, they might as well say I don't like continuity based super-hero comics because they are part and parcel of the fabric of those stories. -M There are stories that based on continuity and I do understand that; the problem is mrp is that I recognized some individual stories and having said that I don't know whether they are part of the shared universes or not. I'm a casual comic book reader that (honest) that don't deal with continuity and when people here talk about that here - I get confused and that bothers me. I love Comics to a degree and I don't deal with details and all that and that bothers me. I don't disparage comics (retcons and all) but I want to point out some stories that bothers me - is the one story in All Star Squadron (can't recall the issue on the top of my head) that Amazing Man was in this issue and according to my knowledge is that's a Silver Age Issue and my mind - Members here (I've don't recall who) told me that this hero is a Golden Age Exclusively and I got bothered why he's doing in a Silver Age Issue? ... that's where I get confused and I do understand changes but some of those changes bothers me (in a little way) and one of them is Amazing Man. I hope this clears things up. Right now, I do understand what you are conveying here and I'm taking back what I said here earlier and try my best to understand the changes of the stories that I read. |
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Retcons
Nov 6, 2017 18:15:05 GMT -5
Post by Jesse on Nov 6, 2017 18:15:05 GMT -5
This may have been mentioned already but when exactly did they start to de-age Commissioner Gordon?I assume it's because of Gotham (The TV show).... he's not nearly as much older then Bruce Wayner there as he had traditionally been in the comic. That's definitely the more recent de-aging of the character but I feel like he started to look younger some time in the 80s. |
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Retcons
Nov 6, 2017 18:31:18 GMT -5
Post by Cei-U! on Nov 6, 2017 18:31:18 GMT -5
The Marvel (Captain America frozen in ice and recovered, Bucky dead) and DC (Golden Age heroes were comic stories read by the real Flash (Barry Allen etc. and then later on Earth 2) shared universes are founded on retcons, without them there is not super-hero comics as we know them today. When people disparage retcons, it means I don't like these changes, but they don't call changes they like retcons even when they are. If someone is going to issue a blanket statement I don't like retcons, they might as well say I don't like continuity based super-hero comics because they are part and parcel of the fabric of those stories. -M There are stories that based on continuity and I do understand that; the problem is mrp is that I recognized some individual stories and having said that I don't know whether they are part of the shared universes or not. I'm a casual comic book reader that (honest) that don't deal with continuity and when people here talk about that here - I get confused and that bothers me. I love Comics to a degree and I don't deal with details and all that and that bothers me. I don't disparage comics (retcons and all) but I want to point out some stories that bothers me - is the one story in All Star Squadron (can't recall the issue on the top of my head) that Amazing Man was in this issue and according to my knowledge is that's a Silver Age Issue and my mind - Members here (I've don't recall who) told me that this hero is a Golden Age Exclusively and I got bothered why he's doing in a Silver Age Issue? ... that's where I get confused and I do understand changes but some of those changes bothers me (in a little way) and one of them is Amazing Man. I hope this clears things up. Right now, I do understand what you are conveying here and I'm taking back what I said here earlier and try my best to understand the changes of the stories that I read. I know I've explained this to you before, AM, and I'm willing to try again. Yes, there was a Golden Age super-hero called Amazing-Man. He was created by Bill Everett for Centaur Publications. The only thing he has in common with the All-Star Squadron character is the name, which Roy Thomas used as a tribute to his late friend (and one-time roommate) Everett. It was not the first time Roy had drawn from that particular well, as Iron Fist's origin in Marvel Premiere #15 is almost identical to the original Amazing-Man's (though their resultant powers were wildly different). The All-Star Squadron's Amazing-Man was created specifically to add some racial balance to a book top heavy with white, male super-heroes (as all Golden Age comics, of course, were). Neither Roy nor anyone else associated with All-Star Squadron ever claimed that their hero was A) an actual hero from the 1940s, or B) tied in any way to his Golden Age namesake. Finally, All-Star Squadron began in 1980 so it is definitely not a Silver Age comic, as you keep referring to it. So are you any clearer on this now? Cei-U! I summon the lowdown! |
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Retcons
Nov 6, 2017 19:05:08 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 19:05:08 GMT -5
Cei-U! ... Understood and thanks again.
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Post by chadwilliam on Nov 6, 2017 22:45:20 GMT -5
I assume it's because of Gotham (The TV show).... he's not nearly as much older then Bruce Wayner there as he had traditionally been in the comic. That's definitely the more recent de-aging of the character but I feel like he started to look younger some time in the 80s. I think once artists stopped depicting Gordon as a heavyset man, he started looking younger.  Gordon in 1955  Gordon in 1969 How old was he supposed to be? World's Finest Comics 53 gave his birthday as January 5, 1900 which would have made him 51 at the time that issue was published. I can see him passing as 50-something in all his incarnations up until recently, keeping in mind that a 50 year old guy in the 1950's didn't usually look like a 50 year old guy does in the 1990's. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Nov 7, 2017 8:03:09 GMT -5
On the subject of retcons generally, I don't tend to like them. That said, I had absolutely no problem with one of the most controversial retcons -- having had Gwen Stacy have sex with Norman Osborn and give birth to twins. I've given my reasons for liking that particular retcon a number of times in the forum, so I won't bother again...and besides, I feel confident that, after years of debating, I've finally persuaded coke & comics that I was right about it all along. So, no need to rub his nose in it again.  But another Spidey retcon that I liked a lot was the revelation, in the Parallel Lives graphic novel, that Mary Jane Watson had known that Peter Parker was Spider-Man all along because she saw him crawl out of his bedroom window in full Spidey garb the night that his Uncle Ben was murdered. Personally, I felt that retcon -- while not really necessary at all -- neatly explained why an absolutely stunning babe like MJ would've ever been even remotely interested in a dorky loser like Peter in the first place. |
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