|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Oct 6, 2017 17:24:48 GMT -5
ps I don't have any evidence at hand; but, I seem to recall that the story about multiple voting on Robin was more urban legend than fact. Thing was, he had been written in such a way as to lead to voting to cap him. Only Marv Wolfman, in Teen Titans, seemed to want to try to make him less of a jerk. I still don't believe DC had any intentions of having him live, if the voting went the other way, despite the one panel released to claim there was an alternate ending. One panel is not an alternate. An entire script is an alternate. I haven't seen anything like that surface. I was also never sold that the Dc vs Marvel voting results were ever legit. Aside from the fact that they protected the big guns by keeping them out of voting, there were no surprises in any of it. I feel it was a combination of leading the voters to a pre-conceived conclusion and pre-negotiated outcomes.
|
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Oct 6, 2017 20:12:23 GMT -5
You could do a whole doctoral thesis on bad ideas in comics. I'd put near the top of my list the trend to turning bright, optimistic characters into morose, angst-ridden jerks. For me, one of the worst was that Adam Strange mini, drawn by Adam Kubert. It was just wrong. The hook to Adam Strange is that he is the smartest guy on another planet and he uses his brains to solve problems, while doing a bit of spacefaring swashbuckling. It doesn't work dark..... IIRC, that Adam Strange mini used a Moore Swamp Thing story as a springboard. Nice art, though. I wasn't crazy about Twilight, Chaykin's take on the DC space heroes of the 50s. But again, nice art by Garcia Lopez. |
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Oct 6, 2017 20:18:31 GMT -5
Oops! wrong thread
|
|
|
|
Post by String on Oct 6, 2017 20:22:36 GMT -5
As alluded to within the Over-saturation thread, Venom in his early appearances and spare usage was good.
However, even though I've read very little of him, was Carnage really needed? He just seems like a complete grab for more money by the further exploitation of the Venom theme.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2017 20:40:11 GMT -5
However, even though I've read very little of him, was Carnage really needed? He just seems like a complete grab for more money by the further exploitation of the Venom theme. When, I was introduced to Carnage in some of the Spider-Man stories - I felt this character was really fit the bill and I kind of grew on him. When, Marvel & DC got together did a Spider-Man Batman Crossover - with Carnage and the Joker - I was stunned by the evilness of Carnage and I felt that this character is worth checking into. So, I'm kind of opposite of you here and I understand your feeling here and I see why. I kind of prefer Carnage over the Venom anyday and yet this crossover is pure gem ... BTW, this is the issue that I was introduced to the Carnage and I loved the character itself.  I read it about 2-3 times a year for kicks! |
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Oct 6, 2017 22:15:50 GMT -5
Too many to mention! Which shouldn't be a surprise since there are lots more bad ideas than good ones and it's easier to screw something up than to get it right. However, in these cases, there's less of an excuse since they had to go out of their way to make a deliberate change to something that was good until they made those changes. A few of my usual suspects:
Crystal's marriage to Quicksilver and the subsequent habit of basing all her stories on some relationship drama, love affairs, marriages, new boyfriends, etc - it is or should be an embarrassment in this day and age to limit any female character that way, let alone one that wasn't so limited before you got your hands on it.
Similar to the Crystal situation, giving Thena a romantic partner or even a husband and children. The writers who have done this - and there has been more than one of them - should really take a look at themselves and as why they felt this was a good idea. More importantly, they should take a look at the character and the whole Eternals set-up to see why it's such a bad idea.
Making Orion a stupid, supercilious bully or an out of control berserker or a callow, insulting frat-boy or etc : again, writers, just read the Kirby comics to understand why none of these are good ideas, then ask yourself why you thought otherwise.
Or making Darkseid a cut-rate Thanos who gets into fist-fights with Superman - and usually gets beat up in the process. This one's too well-documented to need any further comment, but again, writers: what were you thinking?
and so on and so forth.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nowhere Man on Oct 7, 2017 9:38:34 GMT -5
Marvel legacy characters. This should only be a province of DC given their history (much like all the top characters having to be on the Avengers). Legacy characters are iffy in general, but right now there are at least three Jr. Spider-Men running around that I know of. Spider-Gwen is, of course, the biggest mistake. How did this get past the pitch stage? I could see writers getting fired and blacklisted from Marvel for even joking about this back during the Shooter era.  |
|
|
|
Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 7, 2017 11:38:15 GMT -5
I wasn't crazy about Twilight, Chaykin's take on the DC space heroes of the 50s. But again, nice art by Garcia Lopez. I actually loved Twilight, but to me it was the 'Earth-3' versions of the characters and not the 'real' ones. Making Orion a stupid, supercilious bully or an out of control berserker or a callow, insulting frat-boy or etc : again, writers, just read the Kirby comics to understand why none of these are good ideas, then ask yourself why you thought otherwise. Kirby's bombastic art and awkward dialogue during this period tended to obscure what a remarkably subtle writer he was, and very few people have been able to do decent followups to his characters for that reason. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 12:57:58 GMT -5
Marvel legacy characters. This should only be a province of DC given their history (much like all the top characters having to be on the Avengers). Legacy characters are iffy in general, but right now there are at least three Jr. Spider-Men running around that I know of. Spider-Gwen is, of course, the biggest mistake. How did this get past the pitch stage? I could see writers getting fired and blacklisted from Marvel for even joking about this back during the Shooter era. I'll disagree and say Marvel should have continued to be the world outside our window and progressed in real time not Marvel time, and the originals should have long ago retired (in the 80s when they would have been reaching their late 40s and 50s to be replaced by a new generation of younger heroes (much the way New Mutants were supposed to be the next generation of X-Men) and that second generation should have been retired for a 3rd generation by now, keeping Marvel progressing in real time and evolving. It could be a combination of new characters and legacy characters coming in, and you could continue to produce period piece books featuring original characters, but it would have kept the House of Ideas dynamic and growing without having to rely on continuity porn, sliding timelines, and other manipulations that distract from actually telling stories and allowing characters to grow and evolve and there to be consequences to their actions and stories. I think trying to maintain the same status quo for characters that are supposed to be moving through time for 50+ years is a terrible idea for characters. It effectively traps them in amber and limits storytelling potential. -M |
|
|
|
Post by shawnhopkins on Oct 8, 2017 0:36:15 GMT -5
So, the worst of all time was turning Speedball into Penance. Fun, quirky Ditko character starts wearing a suit that cuts him to atone for some oh so serious tragedy.  |
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,218 
|
Post by Confessor on Oct 8, 2017 3:40:02 GMT -5
So, the worst of all time was turning Speedball into Penance. Fun, quirky Ditko character starts wearing a suit that cuts him to atone for some oh so serious tragedy. Well, to be fair, he did basically cause the death of a school full of young children due to his recklessness. So that was pretty serious. Myself, I never cared for Speedball at all until Civil War and his change into Penance. That said, I did lose interest in Penance fairly quickly, but it at least made the character a bit more interesting for a time, as far as I was concerned. |
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Oct 8, 2017 4:29:21 GMT -5
1) Nomad with the baby(named Bucky, of course). What the hell were the people at Marvel smoking in the early 90's?? What an absolutely stupid idea. Oh yeah, a guy fights bad guys with a baby strapped to his back. It worked in Lone Wolf and Cub manga and film series. I haven't read the Marvel story but it may be a nod to those. It was. |
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Oct 8, 2017 4:35:13 GMT -5
An alternate Johnny Storm as a spacefaring ice hockey goalkeeper named Gaard was also pretty... well, hokey. I loved Gaard the Star Skater! I want him to come back, teamed up with the Reed Richards Thing and Gorr the Golden Gorilla! |
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 8, 2017 12:24:50 GMT -5
An alternate Johnny Storm as a spacefaring ice hockey goalkeeper named Gaard was also pretty... well, hokey. I loved Gaard the Star Skater! I want him to come back, teamed up with the Reed Richards Thing and Gorr the Golden Gorilla! I like Gorr. I wasn’t aware of a Reed Richards thing... Although I remember the Reed Richards Brute, from Counter-Earth! |
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Oct 8, 2017 15:08:28 GMT -5
I loved Gaard the Star Skater! I want him to come back, teamed up with the Reed Richards Thing and Gorr the Golden Gorilla! I like Gorr. I wasn’t aware of a Reed Richards thing... Although I remember the Reed Richards Brute, from Counter-Earth! Reed became the Thing on Earth A, the same world Johnny Storm AKA Gaard came from. Ben Grimm got stretching and invisibility powers which Reed cured him of, and married the non-powered Sue Storm. Decades later, She-Hulk discovered that the reason minor super villains who were supposed to be dead kept on randomly turning up alive without expanation was not in fact, because lazy writers were screwing up Marvel continuity; they were all actually tourists from Earth A. |
|
