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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 15, 2019 14:33:27 GMT -5
I value the Norse idea of Midgard, a middle realm, which we live in. We are mortals who live and die and basically everything is half screwed up and can never be perfect (even without Loki causing trouble). It explains something for me and I hang my hat on it sometimes!  |
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Post by MDG on Nov 15, 2019 15:59:53 GMT -5
Of course, there's Jack Chick's Christian comics crusade:  A lot of these are basically horror comics. |
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Post by Duragizer on Nov 15, 2019 20:28:12 GMT -5
Of course, there's Jack Chick's Christian comics crusade: A lot of these are basically horror comics. Or black comedy — very, very, very black. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 17, 2019 7:16:47 GMT -5
< Raised Catholic.
Not in my experience at least. I don't any of the crosses my mother wore ever had a Christ on it. Same for most crosses worn by pastors, monks and nuns that I've met.
Personally-worn crosses are different than those displayed in a house of worship, as you'll never see a crucifix in a Protestant church, and while I haven't seen many crucifixes being worn by individuals, all of those I have seen have been on Catholics. It's that the crucifix is associated with Catholicism, while the empty cross is associated with Protestantism. As an ex-Catholic, I had the impression that Protestant churches frowned upon statues and carved images of all sorts, which would of course include the depiction of Jesus on the cross. But to a Catholic, as symbols go, a cross is a cross whether there be someone on it or not. But regarding Nightcrawler’s faith: his praying in Latin is a total anachronism, and his becoming a priest after what can’t be more than a few months study is absolutely impossible in the Catholic Church. I believe he’s actually a member of the Church Of Token Christianity Depicted By Comic-Book Writers Who Haven’t Researched Their Subject Too Much. That church resembles several actual ones in many ways, but has bizarre quirks like apocryphal books that say how to kill demons (or release them from Hell), actual canonical texts that say how to kill vampires and werewolves, priests who practice exorcisms as a matter of course, priests who speak Latin, and a Vatican that has space aliens and demonic corpses in its underground freezers. Comics routinely depict churches in as inaccurate a fashion as they describe laboratories or military operations... Which is fine in a sense, since they are just there as plot devices. It’s just an added bonus when a story is accurate in its depiction. |
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Post by profh0011 on Nov 17, 2019 17:02:57 GMT -5
Tony Isabella's side of the Ghost Rider story, from his blog: posted 1/24/2016: "Without mentioning yours truly by name, Shooter characterizes me as “a Christian {who was] writing Christian comics instead of super-hero comics.” This is undoubtedly a reference to his tampering with the ending of my two-year run on Ghost Rider, a story designed to remove the supernatural elements from the title and make it more of a super-hero title. Shooter has been trying to either justify that action of his or blame it on someone else for years. He comes up short both ways. Read my earlier blog for the details. I wrote super-hero comics, as anyone familiar with my Marvel work in the 1970s can attest. Heck, I added super-villains to the Living Mummy strip and made other super-villains Hydra department heads in Daredevil. Some of those moves might not have been the best ideas, but I think they are proof of my super-hero leanings. As for whether or not I was a Christian...I was raised in the Roman Catholic faith, but hadn’t been a practicing Catholic since before I moved to New York to work for Marvel Comics. I did take a run at a more evangelical Christianity, but I found it as wanting as I did the Roman Catholic faith. In any case, my adding of a Jesus Christ figure to Ghost Rider had nothing to do with my religious beliefs. It had everything to do with believing there should be some sort of supernatural opposition to Satan and all the Satan-like figures in the Marvel Universe and my recognizing people of faith were seldom represented in our comics. Diversity includes a broad spectrum of human beings. Comic books should represent that." I remember when I first ran across the JOHNNY BLAZE series (my now-preferred name for it, heh), I remember feeling that the "horror" boom had gotten a little too big for itself. Everywhere I looked, horror movies, horror on TV (well, toned down a lot), horror in comics... monsters, vampires, 20 different versions of DRACULA... I didn't mind it from Warren, horror was their thing... but Marvel?
But "Ghost Rider" was different. I came in when it was being done by Tony Isabella & Jim Mooney (the latter a favorite of mine even when he was at DC), and when I got the earlier issues, I found I liked the Isabella-Mooney issues best of all. I could not fathom why anyone should create a series and then jump ship so soon (as Gary Friedrich did) and felt when Mooney suddenly disappeared that in some ways the series never quite regained its footing. (But, that's me.)
I could dig the MIX of superhero and supernatural horror... and, as a bonus, having grown up Catholic, going to a Catholic church, having gone to a private Catholic school for 4 years, and having a lifelong fascination with fictional depictions of Jesus and THE DEVIL, I got the biggest kick out of seeing SATAN actually shown as a character in a superhero comic! Not some random demon-- SATAN HIMSELF!!
So... I may not have quite realized that Isabella wanted to bring closure to that part of Blaze's career, and move on... but having determined to do so, it was a BLATENT abuse of power on Jim Shooter's part to DERAIL a story Isabella had been working on for 2 YEARS. This is especially blatent when you consider that SATAN was THE MAIN VILLAIN of the book from its very 1st installment!!
I'd say Shooter was just being a DICK.
I sometimes think I'm really glad that I never wound up working for him...
I LOVED this page!!!!!!!
Look at this-- Sal Trapani, one of the worst inkers in the biz-- and Mooney's art is so good, even Trapani couldn't ruin it!
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Post by profh0011 on Nov 17, 2019 17:13:14 GMT -5
I wonder what Jim Shooter would think of SOUTH PARK ? They quite often featured both SATAN and JESUS as actual characters within their stories. Jesus was shown to live in the town of South Park and host a public-access TV show called "Jesus And Pals".
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 17, 2019 20:53:00 GMT -5
(...) II could dig the MIX of superhero and supernatural horror... and, as a bonus, having grown up Catholic, going to a Catholic church, having gone to a private Catholic school for 4 years, and having a lifelong fascination with fictional depictions of Jesus and THE DEVIL, I got the biggest kick out of seeing SATAN actually shown as a character in a superhero comic! Not some random demon-- SATAN HIMSELF!! Absolutely! That kind of story just doesn’t work if you use Dormammu, Satannish or Merdique Curiosity (or some other made up demon). It has to be the original old Nick! And if you use the actual Satan in a story, I think it’s fine to also use Jesus (who was strongly hinted to be the “friend” who saved Johnny’s soul). I mean, if you’re using Christian theology as your background, you can’t do it halfway! Besides, the “friend” wasn’t actually named, so the PTB can always pretend that it could be anyone... but come on. It had to be Jesus. “But, but”, seem to say the same PTB... “Won’t people be offended if we use a real-life religious figure in a comic-book story?” Perhaps. But I seriously doubt there will be more than a handful. The vast majority will enjoy the story for what it is: just a story!!! OF COURSE Marvel isn’t saying that Jesus really saved Ghost Rider... GHOST RIDER DOESN’T EXIST! I thoroughly enjoyed the Isabella story in which we meet the “friend”, back when I was Catholic, and I still enjoy it today as an atheist. It’s a great story, and that’s it! |
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Post by profh0011 on Nov 17, 2019 22:10:27 GMT -5
To me, the book fell almost completely to pieces when Michael Fleisher got on it, and proceeded to tell the same story about 40 issues in a row (like he does on every series he gets on).
Things finally pulled out of their nosedive when Roger Stern-- then really up-and-coming-- took over. But as I recall, he started his run with a retelling of the origin... and as he'd done on AVENGERS, followed Shooter's marching orders by replacing Satan with MEPHISTO. It just wasn't the same.
During that period, Marvel seemed like it was generally closing the book on supernatural horror series. The impression I had was, Shooter didn't like "horror" comics-- period. Pretty strange for a publisher that had done SO MANY horror books in the 50s and then in the 70s. That didn't turn around until he was booted out.
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Post by Duragizer on Nov 18, 2019 0:48:43 GMT -5
From my brief foray into early Valiant, I got the sense that Shooter was/is a rationalist who doesn't think too highly of the supernatural. There seemed to be an undercurrent* of skepticism/cynicism in many of the titles under his reign, even Shadowman.
*Overcurrent, in Solar's case.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Nov 18, 2019 1:56:39 GMT -5
While they're as anti organized religion as you'd expect, it's surprising how pro Jesus and pro Bible the Underground comics guys were. Like Jesus is basically a really good guy here (albeit mad at his deadbeat dad...)  And Binky Brown seems more angry at the Catholic Church than religion in general. (And the later afterward in later editions make it clear that the problems that Justin Green/Binky were more a brain chemistry problem than a Catholic Church problem.) It got mixed reviews, but I really, really enjoyed the R. Crumb book of Genesis.  I'm probably missing something here - my underground reading isn't super comprehensive - but I'm surprised and pleased by the respect the idea of spirituality is given in comics that are mostly/often designed to be shocking. A lot less angry atheist syndrome than I would expect. |
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Post by berkley on Nov 18, 2019 4:54:36 GMT -5
I haven't read a lot of underground comics either but I'm old enough to remember that some elements of the hippie movement were very involved with what they saw as a return to the basis of Jesus's teachings: "peace, love, and understanding" - again, as they saw it. The whole hippie aesthetic of long hair, sandals, robes, etc, was obviously not uninfluenced by traditional western depictions of early Christian or Biblical dress, though of course also derived from the Beats and other cultural predecessors. So I don't think it's surprising that some of that attitude made itself felt in the counter-culture comics of the time, as it did in music, etc.
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 18, 2019 6:18:02 GMT -5
I believe he’s actually a member of the Church Of Token Christianity Depicted By Comic-Book Writers Who Haven’t Researched Their Subject Too Much. That reads like so many titles--mainly Marvel books--of the 70s and 80s. Between Satana, Son of Satan, Dracula, Gabriel, et al., there was a flood of surface (mis)understanding about religion... ...but in comics, there seemed to be a Baby Boomer level of disdain for faith, religion and/or the church, so its depictions were often exaggerated and rarely used as a moral counter beyond "Good must beat super-evil of the month"--as if is was something one has on a shelf and not applicable to any other part of life, other than keeping ghouls at bay, rendering religion/faith as some object and not a belief. For that reason, even a title like Tomb of Dracula was at its best when it focused on character studies and not its thin, Marvel-izing of religious subjects beyond the Stoker-esque tropes, or its own inventions, such as the Montesi formula that Dr. Strange used against all vampires. |
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Post by MDG on Nov 18, 2019 12:06:18 GMT -5
.... And Binky Brown seems more angry at the Catholic Church than religion in general. (And the later afterward in later editions make it clear that the problems that Justin Green/Binky were more a brain chemistry problem than a Catholic Church problem.) .... Yeah, that was a real revelation (no pun intended) when I read that. Re-reading the book recently, with that context, was a much different experience than when I first read it in '75. |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Nov 18, 2019 12:31:57 GMT -5
That kind of story just doesn’t work if you use Dormammu, Satannish or Merdique Curiosity (or some other made up demon). It has to be the original old Nick! I agree! Marvel has moved Mephisto into that roll somewhat, which could be worse, but I like them better when they all had discrete roles: Satan - reserved for horror characters w/ religious themes Mephisto - the 'tempter' who interacts with superheroes Dormammu, Satannish - reserved for Dr Strange or other mystical types Thog - interdimensional conqueror would be a good opponent for the Captain Britain Corps And Binky Brown seems more angry at the Catholic Church than religion in general. (And the later afterward in later editions make it clear that the problems that Justin Green/Binky were more a brain chemistry problem than a Catholic Church problem.) Binky Brown was hugely influential, one of the first autobiographical comics and pretty much a complete graphic novel. I consider it a masterpiece. |
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Post by profh0011 on Nov 18, 2019 18:47:03 GMT -5
I know there have been countless comics adaptations of Bible stories. That's probably not what you're looking for in this thread. But several years back, I managed to find, download, clean up and re-post about 65 YEARS' worth of " Stories From The Bible" installments from BOY'S LIFE magazine. When I got everything I could get my hands on online, I then started a 2nd blog just to re-post all the installments, this time in the order of the book (rather than the magazine publication dates). They'd done multiple versions of many stories over the years, some a couple times, some as many as 10 times, by different artists. Among the artists were several I associate with other series... like Creig Flessel, Irving Novick, Lou Fine, Curt Swan, Frank Bolle, Don Punchatz, Anthony Castrillo, Graeme Hewetson, and Tin Salamunic. There are several others I have not been able to identify, because from the early 60s to the late 70s, editor Al Stenzel REMOVED all the credits! They returned after he passed away. Bizarre, isn't it? The BL series oddly stopped doing any " New Testament" stories by the late 60s. I came to suspect it was either because they felt other magazines had those bases covered, or, because by focusing on the "Old Testament", they would be of interest to both Christians AND Jews. Here's the very 1st installment, from September 1952. Creig Flessel art!  |
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