|
|
Post by Randle-El on Nov 19, 2019 1:00:50 GMT -5
Personally-worn crosses are different than those displayed in a house of worship, as you'll never see a crucifix in a Protestant church, and while I haven't seen many crucifixes being worn by individuals, all of those I have seen have been on Catholics. It's that the crucifix is associated with Catholicism, while the empty cross is associated with Protestantism. As an ex-Catholic, I had the impression that Protestant churches frowned upon statues and carved images of all sorts, which would of course include the depiction of Jesus on the cross. But to a Catholic, as symbols go, a cross is a cross whether there be someone on it or not. But regarding Nightcrawler’s faith: his praying in Latin is a total anachronism, and his becoming a priest after what can’t be more than a few months study is absolutely impossible in the Catholic Church. I believe he’s actually a member of the Church Of Token Christianity Depicted By Comic-Book Writers Who Haven’t Researched Their Subject Too Much. That church resembles several actual ones in many ways, but has bizarre quirks like apocryphal books that say how to kill demons (or release them from Hell), actual canonical texts that say how to kill vampires and werewolves, priests who practice exorcisms as a matter of course, priests who speak Latin, and a Vatican that has space aliens and demonic corpses in its underground freezers. Comics routinely depict churches in as inaccurate a fashion as they describe laboratories or military operations... Which is fine in a sense, since they are just there as plot devices. It’s just an added bonus when a story is accurate in its depiction.
The prohibitions against statues and images is usually found in the Calvinist branches of Protestantism, and is derived from their interpretation of the second commandment. This would extend to images of any kind of God or Jesus. Bible-based films like Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ generally do well in Protestant circles, but find a more tepid response in Calvinist circles due to their view on graven images.
Regarding the Church of Token Christianity -- I have always been amused that the standard Christian figure in these stories that typically involve supernatural elements (exorcisms and the like) is usually a Catholic priest. I suppose it's a by-product of writers who are not religiously literate (or haven't bothered to do their research), but I would think that Pentecostals would be at least as likely to show up, given their preoccupation with the miraculous and supernatural aspects of Christianity.
|
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Nov 19, 2019 1:07:43 GMT -5
Regarding the Church of Token Christianity -- I have always been amused that the standard Christian figure in these stories that typically involve supernatural elements (exorcisms and the like) is usually a Catholic priest. I suppose it's a by-product of writers who are not religiously literate (or haven't bothered to do their research), but I would think that Pentecostals would be at least as likely to show up, given their preoccupation with the miraculous and supernatural aspects of Christianity. Catholic priests have a handy uniform, and uniforms work well in a visual medium so you don't have to spend dialogue time to figure out who's a nurse, who's a cop, who's a soldier, who's a religious leader, etc. |
|
|
|
Post by EdoBosnar on Nov 19, 2019 4:28:17 GMT -5
Regarding the Church of Token Christianity -- I have always been amused that the standard Christian figure in these stories that typically involve supernatural elements (exorcisms and the like) is usually a Catholic priest. I suppose it's a by-product of writers who are not religiously literate (or haven't bothered to do their research), but I would think that Pentecostals would be at least as likely to show up, given their preoccupation with the miraculous and supernatural aspects of Christianity.
Besides the point that rberman made about Catholic priests wearing an easily identifiable garb, there's also the fact that to this day the Catholic Church condones exorcisms and has priests with the status of exorcist. As for the "preoccupation with the miraculous and supernatural," Catholic pilgrims still flock to pilgrimage sites like Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugorje. |
|
|
|
Post by Randle-El on Nov 19, 2019 9:48:56 GMT -5
Regarding the Church of Token Christianity -- I have always been amused that the standard Christian figure in these stories that typically involve supernatural elements (exorcisms and the like) is usually a Catholic priest. I suppose it's a by-product of writers who are not religiously literate (or haven't bothered to do their research), but I would think that Pentecostals would be at least as likely to show up, given their preoccupation with the miraculous and supernatural aspects of Christianity.
Besides the point that rberman made about Catholic priests wearing an easily identifiable garb, there's also the fact that to this day the Catholic Church condones exorcisms and has priests with the status of exorcist. As for the "preoccupation with the miraculous and supernatural," Catholic pilgrims still flock to pilgrimage sites like Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugorje.
That's a good point. Still, at least in the U.S., I would give the nod to the Pentecostals over Catholics. It's not unusual to hear people speak in tongues, be "slain in the spirit", witness a "healing" or two, or hear a prophetic utterance during a Pentecostal church service, whereas Catholic masses seem to rather sedate affairs in comparison.
|
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Nov 19, 2019 9:59:49 GMT -5
This is fascinating!
I recall ONCE briefly discussing exorcism with a priest in my Catholic church (must have been in the 80s) and he just looked at me oddly. I guess things vary from church to church, but it sure seemed to me that modern Catholics didn't really seem to believe in ANYTHING "supernatural", despite the supernatural being the focus of so many Bible stories.
A few years back, I FINALLY got around to writing a story about an exorcist (after having first briefly considered it way back in early 1975-- HAH!). I made the guy a DEFROCKED ex-Catholic priest, who explained to his old friend that he had been KICKED out of the church for delving into "forbidden" research.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randle-El on Nov 20, 2019 10:39:45 GMT -5
While we're on this topic of exorcisms, I would be remiss if I did not mention one of the more obvious and recent depictions of faith in comics (and an exception to the typical Catholic-priest-as-exorcist) -- Robert Kirkman's Outcast. One of the main characters is a Protestant minister, most likely Baptist or Pentecostal, who performs exorcisms on people who he believes are possessed by biblical demons... although it later turns out that the "demons" are really non-corporeal beings from another dimensions. But prior to that twist being revealed, there was a lot of interesting discussion in the letters column regarding spiritual and theological topics. There were a few letters from hardcore atheists who were upset about some of the "spiritual" aspects of the book, and some from people who were apparently devout believers. There was some lively religious debate -- not something that I'd seen in a letters column in a while.
|
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Nov 20, 2019 11:06:53 GMT -5
While we're on this topic of exorcisms, I would be remiss if I did not mention one of the more obvious and recent depictions of faith in comics (and an exception to the typical Catholic-priest-as-exorcist) -- Robert Kirkman's Outcast. One of the main characters is a Protestant minister, most likely Baptist or Pentecostal, who performs exorcisms on people who he believes are possessed by biblical demons... although it later turns out that the "demons" are really non-corporeal beings from another dimensions. But prior to that twist being revealed, there was a lot of interesting discussion in the letters column regarding spiritual and theological topics. There were a few letters from hardcore atheists who were upset about some of the "spiritual" aspects of the book, and some from people who were apparently devout believers. There was some lively religious debate -- not something that I'd seen in a letters column in a while.  Outcast appears to be based on real-life exorcist Bob Larson, who is a Protestant but adopts Roman Catholic tropes -- the collar, the big cross -- as part of his professional persona. Dunno about the Holy Water part, though some Pentacostals do anoint with oil for healing. Larson is pastor of Spiritual Freedom Church in Phoenix, Arizona, whose statement of faith looks like standard Protestantism. Here he is, doing his thing: |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 11:42:01 GMT -5
This is fascinating! I recall ONCE briefly discussing exorcism with a priest in my Catholic church (must have been in the 80s) and he just looked at me oddly. I guess things vary from church to church, but it sure seemed to me that modern Catholics didn't really seem to believe in ANYTHING "supernatural", despite the supernatural being the focus of so many Bible stories. A few years back, I FINALLY got around to writing a story about an exorcist (after having first briefly considered it way back in early 1975-- HAH!). I made the guy a DEFROCKED ex-Catholic priest, who explained to his old friend that he had been KICKED out of the church for delving into "forbidden" research. There's a scene in Hellraiser III: Hell on Earth where a woman, fleeing the Cenobites, finds a Catholic priest - and starts screaming about demons. The priest says something like, "Demons aren't real. They're parables, metaphors!" He says that just prior to Pinhead entering the church.  |
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Nov 20, 2019 12:08:10 GMT -5
I recall ONCE briefly discussing exorcism with a priest in my Catholic church (must have been in the 80s) and he just looked at me oddly. I guess things vary from church to church, but it sure seemed to me that modern Catholics didn't really seem to believe in ANYTHING "supernatural", despite the supernatural being the focus of so many Bible stories. I perceive a divide on this matter between the elite and the common people, especially those of the developing world. The same is true in Protestantism to some degree, with Pentacostalism and independent baptists often drawing both their membership and their clergy from the working classes, with a greater emphasis on the supernatural, whereas those denominations that tend toward college educated members and clergy (Presbyterian, Episcopalian, etc.) being less likely to cite events today as miracles -- not to the point of denying miracles either past or present, but just a lesser tendency. As an educated Protestant, my gut reaction to the Bob Larson video is, "Hm, maybe" rather than "Yeah, obviously." |
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Nov 20, 2019 13:07:09 GMT -5
it later turns out that the "demons" are really non-corporeal beings from another dimensions. HAH!!! In my own story, you weren't sure what was going on... but then, to my own surprise, I wound up writing a sequel, in which what you mention turned out to be exactly the case. I was kind of mixing influences (which is often the best way to do such a thing) and in the mix were a certain 1950s Hammer Film, and the very 1st OUTER LIMITS episode I ever saw (at the age of only 4). I wound up paying tribute to H.P. Lovecraft, unintentionally. Oh yeah, and with a reference to one of the Sylvester McCoy DOCTOR WHO stories (just for fun).
I love when you're writing, and the work takes on a life of itself, taking you to places you never even planned or expected when you started.
|
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Nov 20, 2019 13:13:32 GMT -5
I had some various weird Christian comics as a kid that were not the Jack T. Chick booklets, but there was a title I saw called 'The Crusaders' that was like a Classic Illustrated type of scene from Chick in a regular comic book format, and I had some of those Spire things, mostly Archie, including one with the true story of Chuck Colson who 'found the Lord' in prison while doing time for the Nixon admin and the unindicted co-conspirator. I may have some indoctrination to wash off still, who knows.
I thought the Marvels with any religious or supernatural stuff outside Doctor Strange, Dracula and Ghost Rider just seemed too silly to me, sorry. Son Of Satan, Brother Voodoo, Satanna, Frankenstein's Monster, even Dracula... them appearing in a crossover usually ruined a comic to me (except Doctor Strange #48 with BV was cool)... even Shooter's own bizarre Woodgod whatever he was supposed to be... heck Scarlet Witch was problematic with that hex power even though they explained it sometimes as a chaos effect... witch Mrs. Harkness in Fantastic Four, also out of place. I guess this means I don't like the peanut butter in my chocolate or vice-versa very much? Ghost Rider in the Champions, Man Thing in The Micronauts... uncomfortable fits, not favorites. I lump it all together somehow: religion-magic.
And yet... the priest in Cloak & Dagger was a solid supporting character. I don't mind if Nightcrawler, or Kitty Pryde, were to practice a religion, seemed like Storm was a naturecentric-wiccan of some kind, which would've been more interesting than her going punk and becoming a vampire.
Does Larry Gonick's Cartoon History Of the Universe count? It showed Sumerians and Babylonians, but also missing link type hominids before that.
|
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Nov 20, 2019 15:32:18 GMT -5
seemed like Storm was a naturecentric-wiccan of some kind, which would've been more interesting than her going punk and becoming a vampire. Storm's African religion seemed to consist of (1) casting off Western notions of bodily modesty; (2) regular exclamations of "Bright Lady!"; (3) raising plants in the attic of Xavier's mansion; (4) occasional mentions that she used to be worshiped. I suppose religion is experienced differently when one is the object of worship rather than the worshiper. Ororo never seemed to let it go to her head, though; she must have been a benign deity. Claremont did as much as he was going to do with her earth religion (which wasn't much) in the first several years before taking her punk for variety, basically making her the new Jean Grey, tempted to "go dark" (in wardrobe and demeanor) and unleash her emotions and the powers that she had always held in check. Claremont's best stab at the topic came in X-Men #198 ("LifeDeath II", 1985) when Ororo returned sans powers to her African village. She delivered a baby, resuscitated it postpartum, and accepts the tribe's tradition that when a new baby is born, the oldest tribesman must die.  Artist Barry Windsor-Smith had Ororo revisit the scene when she regained her powers, except he had to rename her "Adastra" since Marvel wouldn't publish the story, so he published it himself.  |
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on Nov 20, 2019 17:21:47 GMT -5
While we're on this topic of exorcisms, I would be remiss if I did not mention one of the more obvious and recent depictions of faith in comics (and an exception to the typical Catholic-priest-as-exorcist) -- Robert Kirkman's Outcast. One of the main characters is a Protestant minister, most likely Baptist or Pentecostal, who performs exorcisms on people who he believes are possessed by biblical demons... although it later turns out that the "demons" are really non-corporeal beings from another dimensions Eh. That's so 50s anthology TV and older short stories, that I'm surprised Kirkman thought that was an original angle to pursue. |
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Nov 20, 2019 22:06:39 GMT -5
What usually matters to me is not whether an idea is now or not, but HOW it's handled. What any given writer does with material to put their own personal stamp on it is often the main determining point to separate "tribute" from "plagiarism".
|
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Nov 21, 2019 11:51:34 GMT -5
Aaaaaand a bunch of the last few years of Cerebus were an attempt to wrap the different strands of the book of Genesis into a singular narrative.
I frickin' love Old Testament Mythology in comics*, but even I thought this was really, really boring. But it needs credit as a very public and personal statement of faith. Dave wrote a lot about religion and his conversion and.... well, they were Davd Sim essays. They'd veer back and forth between funny and well-reasoned into batshit logical leaps and then back again.
* Although the only *good* examples I can think of are Sandman and the Bandy Man, which nobody else read.
|
|
