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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 17:43:27 GMT -5
Who does the multiverse better, DC or Marvel?
I always liked the concept of the multiverse - and it's even more exciting, given the real multiverse may be a 'thing' - but I have to say, DC did and does it so much better, in my humble opinion.
Why? Three words: unique selling point.
I believe that there was a logical structure and order to the DC Multiverse. You had Earth-One, home to the modern heroes who had adventures in contemporary times. Earth-Two was home to vintage heroes. It was also where Superman and Batman had their WWII exploits. Some fans had started asking how the Man of Steel and the Dark Knight could have been active during WWII and the modern era. So Earth-Two was the explanation. Overall, I'm fine with that. And it did lead to some interesting storylines.
I was fine with the other earths, too. Earth-Three featured the Crime Syndicate of America, doppelgangers of our heroes. That in itself was a unique selling point for me.
And then there's Marvel. They just didn't do the multiverse as well as DC. It all seemed less structured, more haphazard, etc.
DC's multiverse followed a certain logic ("Let's put the WWII Superman and Batman here, the modern ones there - and that earth can be for Captain Carrot!"). Marvel's multiverse just seemed lazy ("Erm, that Spider-Man tale really shouldn't be canonical, so let's say it happened on this earth!").
DC did have a lot of fun with the concept over time (they probably overdid it, though). And Marvel tried - badly - to follow suit over time. What is it they say about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?
I'm not saying Marvel did all of it bad. The "Marvel 2099" imprint, featuring one possible future in 2099 A.D., certainly deserves a lot of credit. But as many imitators do, they went overboard. Eventually they had countless haphazard multiple earths. Pedantically, it was decided that one team up (Spidey meeting the Transformers) required its own earth even though it would have been perfectly reasonable for that to remain a part of the mainstream Marvel Universe.
Like I said, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. DC had a good thing going with its multiverse (it got a little convoluted over time). And TV's Arrowverse has done well with it. I just don't think Marvel should have ever jumped on that bandwagon.
And, in my humble opinion, "DC Multiverse" rolls off the tongue more naturally than "Marvel Multiverse" despite the alliteration.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 1, 2018 18:22:21 GMT -5
Yeah, that makes sense. DC is more rooted in science fiction while Marvel is more soap opera. I THINK the Marvel Multiverse is still based around the "What If?" concept... It continues characters individual stories rather than creating a separate cosmology that the superhereos are only a small part of.
(Note: This is the first time in my life I have ever thought about the Marvel Multiverse.)
I liked Exiles from Marvel circa 2004-2005 ish. A core group of X-type characters travelled around to alternate realities.
Also obligatory complaints about the Crisis on the Infinite Earths basically destroying DC's core strengths as a publishing line to make it into a pale imitation of Marvel.
Double also the Earth 2 episodes of the Flash TV show made me so happy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 18:27:00 GMT -5
Personally, I never, ever liked the Multiverse Concept -- it is too misleading and confuse new readers and all that; and the Crisis on Infinite Earths is one of the most outlandish storylines ever. I know Marvel has one or more of these concepts and I never, ever bother with it at all. I just feel numb after reading them and discard the book(s) back to my LCS for credit.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 1, 2018 18:58:50 GMT -5
I think the Multiverse is a great way to allow an excuse to allow different stuff to happen to characters you can't change.
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Post by rberman on Dec 1, 2018 20:01:21 GMT -5
DC's multiverse began as a convenient way to reboot their dormant superhero IP by positing that the Golden Age characters existed in the Silver Age both as comic book characters in the modern comics and also as real people in their own separate dimension. Anyone reading my Grant Morrison threads knows that his entire career has been built on exploring this conceit, and he's been one of the chief architects at DC for much of the last thirty years.  DC then expanded their notion of the multiverse to include (1) old IP which the company acquired from failing competitors, and (2) new IP which needed to be sequestered in its own continuity. Interaction between these different continuities was often a selling point. The most popular "Imaginary Stories" like Watchmen and Kingdom Come were retroactively granted full "alternate universe" status or even incorporated into the main DC universe. However, overall DC's titles in the Silver Age tended to stand alone from each other, so that most of the time they might as well all occur in different universes. Characters lived in different imaginary cities scattered across the USA. Marvel on the other hand built its reputation on interconnectedness from the get-go. Never mind living in the same universe; all of the Marvel characters seemed to live in the same neighborhood, within a few blocks of the Marvel offices apparently. When Xavier sends a telepathic signal, Daredevil can't help but notice, and Human Torch rushes to respond. When did Marvel start using alternate realities heavily? Did it begin with Chris Claremont's increasingly convoluted X-Men time travel stories, starting with "Days of Future Past"? The immense popularity of those X-Men stories must have encouraged others at Marvel to do the same. Claremont doubled down on the multiverse in Excalibur, a whole series built on the premise of jaunting between different versions of reality. Marvel has used "alternate realities" as farm teams, starting new lines of comics in search of expanded IP. The New Universe. 2099. The Ultimates. Then they incorporate the successes back into the main continuity. So to answer the original post: (1) We don't need multiverses. (2) DC does multiverses better, and Marvel did continuity better, at least for its first thirty years. But as the grip of editorial on writers loosened, nd the number of details to track multiplied, continuity became impossible to maintain. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 20:14:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the ever-thoughtful comments, folks! For me, I think Marvel went overboard with the concept. I mean, after Spidey teamed with the Transformers, back when Marvel had the Transformers licence, did we really need to be told that their crossover was taking place on another earth? I had zero problems with Autobots existing in the mainstream Marvel Universe. Why did it require its own earth? I get that there needed to be other earths for the likes of What if?. That, of course made sense. Other things didn't. I enjoyed the early DC/Marvel crossovers. My favourite is the second Superman/Spider-Man crossover (1981). For me, that worked well, and I had no problem suspending my disbelief and imagining that Supes and Spidey lived on the same earth. But somehow that was designated as taking place on a particular earth within comic's multiverse. Why? I wish I knew. It just felt unwieldy with Marvel. DC's designated Earths had a USP and a purpose. I mean, Captain Carrot probably did need his own earth. And the pre-Crisis Captain Marvel stories probably required their own earth. So it made sense for DC to have multiple earths. But with Marvel, I didn't see the need, certainly not to the extent they did it. Spidey never becoming a crimefighter needed its own earth for the purpose of a What if? issue. Spidey happening to have an adventure with the Transformers, or assisting Superman against Lex Luthor and Dr. Octopus, didn't. In my humble opinion, of course.  |
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Post by rberman on Dec 1, 2018 20:27:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the ever-thoughtful comments, folks! For me, I think Marvel went overboard with the concept. I mean, after Spidey teamed with the Transformers, back when Marvel had the Transformers licence, did we really need to be told that their crossover was taking place on another earth? I had zero problems with Autobots existing in the mainstream Marvel Universe. Why did it require its own earth? There's actually a very good reason to sequester licensed properties like Transformers and Star Wars into their own continuities. Those licenses lapse, and then Marvel loses the right to reprint the stories. This causes problems in both ongoing continuity and anthology printing if the characters are tied into the main Marvel universe. So, for instance, Marvel can't reprint the X-Men and the Micronauts" mini-series. Not that they should; it was terrible. But they can't if they want to. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 20:32:42 GMT -5
That is a good point. Godzilla was once part of the Marvel Universe, but I suspect he is elsewhere now. So I do understand what you mean.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 1, 2018 20:40:38 GMT -5
However, overall DC's titles in the Silver Age tended to stand alone from each other, so that most of the time they might as well all occur in different universes. Characters lived in different imaginary cities scattered across the USA. That depended on the title; for example, the League of Assassins appeared in Justice League of America and Batman, while an Aquaman storyline crossed over with the original Teen Titans comic, and so on. Although early Marvel had Johnny Storm reading Sub-Mariner comics one would assume was from real world Timely Comics; he also referred to pre-1964 retconned Captain America as a comic book character, yet both ended up as part of the "current" Marvel universe, with their WW2 adventures said to be a real part of Marvel's past. No, not with the X-Men. If I had to take a guess, it probably started with the aftermath of The Avengers #56 ( "Death Be Not Proud" from September of 1968) where Cap leads Goliath, Black Panther and Hawkeye back to 1945 to witness Cap and Bucky's final, lethal battle against Baron Zemo (and change time in doing so) and its continuation in The Avengers Annual #2 ( "And Time, the Rushing River..." also from September of 1968), where the Scarlet Centurion sends the returning 1968 Avengers to an alternate timeline to fight an original Avengers line up where the Hulk is still a member, and Captain America was never discovered. The events of those two Avengers stories opened up the existence of parallel worlds / universes in a significant way, and would be explored with this villain and Kang in the years to come. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 20:49:23 GMT -5
I always liked DC's Multiverse. I saw it as an opportunity to tell different versions of any hero. You could have a young single Superman (E-1) and also a middle aged married Superman (E-2) and have them both "count" and not be imaginary.
Plus I think certain heroes work "best" in their own separate universe like Capt Marvel/Shazam.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 20:52:15 GMT -5
I always felt one unfortunate "byproduct" of Crisis was having Captain Marvel sharing an earth with Superman, Batman, etc. I always felt he belonged on his own earth, with perhaps very occasional crossovers being suited to the nature of his world. I mean, I love this:  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 20:57:38 GMT -5
I get that there needed to be other earths for the likes of What if?. That, of course made sense. Other things didn't. I loved the Marvels What If Concept ... one of my favorite books in the early days of Marvel Comics. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 21:01:49 GMT -5
Same here, MechaGodzilla.
It's interesting how some classic What If? tales (e.g. Jane Foster becoming Thor) eventually became mainstream adventures decades later!
I also think some rather convoluted modern arcs would have worked better as What If? tales. Captain America as a HYDRA agent would, for me, have worked far more effectively as a two-part What If? tale than the multi-issue arc it was in 2017.
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 1, 2018 22:31:49 GMT -5
I always felt one unfortunate "byproduct" of Crisis was having Captain Marvel sharing an earth with Superman, Batman, etc. I always felt he belonged on his own earth, with perhaps very occasional crossovers being suited to the nature of his world. I mean, I love this: I used to have this comic and you'd think I would remember something about the story but I really don't remember how they explained this scene inside anywhere. Ego The Living Planet in Marvel comics was a lot higher concept though I'm sure. I think in the '60s-'70s DC it was great to have the WWII Earth 2 characters interact with the then 'modern' Earth 1 characters, but it was not going to work out chronologically for much longer when they did the Crisis implosion, whereas Marvel has this 'Marvel time' thing that is extremely elastic I guess and there's what if, so maybe I'd say Marvel now does multiverses better. What could only work for awhile though is now broken and all the alternate Earths will be redundant sooner or later (Earth S for Shazam had the Fawcett characters, and there was a Freedom Fighters universe with the Quality characters)... they're all comic books and as real ultimately as Donald Duck or Wonder Warthog, so I just read the stories and any illusion of a cohesive universe is a bonus. If Captain Carrot or Hoppy The Marvel Bunny can meet Superman and Captain Marvel respectively who can say it really happened or wasn't an 'imaginary tale'? If it's a good comic story you'll forgive it anything, but if it's not good tacking on a lot of obsessive continuity isn't going to improve things. |
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Post by Cheswick on Dec 1, 2018 22:54:02 GMT -5
That is a good point. Godzilla was once part of the Marvel Universe, but I suspect he is elsewhere now. So I do understand what you mean. During Matt Fraction's run on Uncanny X-Men, he used a character, Dr. Yuriko Takiguchi, who, at that point, had only ever appeared in the Godzilla book. That seems to imply the Godzilla stories are canon, even if they are never directly referenced.
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