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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 29, 2019 1:00:30 GMT -5
Incidentally, it was MISTER MIRACLE that was originally conceived as being a totally-independant series, with the Fourth World elements being tacked on by the time Kirby got started actually doing it. If you look at the later issues... after Scott & Barda return to Apokalips to fight for the right to their freedom, you can see more of how the book was probably meant to be in the first place. That's so strange. Mister Miracle 11-17 are... fine. Interesting enough, certainly worth reading. But the 4th world heavy issues of MM (1-10 and 18) are my favorite thing Kirby ever worked on. |
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Post by berkley on Apr 29, 2019 1:24:23 GMT -5
Yes, certainly, whatever his original intentions might have been, Mister Miracle ended up being an integral part of the whole Fourth World mythology and to my mind feels incomplete when separated from it, whether in the last few issues of Kirby's series or when transplanted into the JLA or what have you.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Apr 29, 2019 11:44:58 GMT -5
Olsen was a monthly, while one of the other three titles came out every three weeks in a rotating cycle, and Kirby was allowed to be his own editor – but not to be his own artist entirely, as Al Plastino and Murphy Anderson redrew his angular versions of Superman and Jimmy Olsen to stay “on model” with the work on other Superman titles.
I admit when I read All-Star Superman, as much as I loved the art, I wished we'd had Al Plastino and Murphy Anderson to, if nothing else, tighten up the pencils on Superman's and Jimmy's faces.
Mark Evanier has written somewhere (I've not been able to find it) that Kirby's original proposal for the 4th World presumed they'd all be written and drawn by other people (including Wally Wood on Orion and the New Gods). He also wanted to edit to Captain Marvel revival ... so we might have had Cap getting involved in these stories instead of Superman, maybe (which would have been lovely, but also would have put Cap on Earth-1, which I'd not have liked)?
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Post by rberman on Apr 29, 2019 12:32:06 GMT -5
Mark Evanier has written somewhere (I've not been able to find it) that Kirby's original proposal for the 4th World presumed they'd all be written and drawn by other people (including Wally Wood on Orion and the New Gods). He also wanted to edit to Captain Marvel revival ... so we might have had Cap getting involved in these stories instead of Superman, maybe (which would have been lovely, but also would have put Cap on Earth-1, which I'd not have liked)?
Yes, that information is from Evanier's foreword in the New Gods Omnibus which I own. After years of being the pencil pusher, Kirby wanted to step into an executive creative role and let others do the drudgery. But DC said no; they wanted him for his name and his art less than his story ideas. |
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Post by profh0011 on Apr 29, 2019 16:25:29 GMT -5
Only problem with that is that Jimmy Olsen or an equivalent wasn't part of the plan. That's not a "problem". It's an observation.
Considering Kirby originally conceived the Fourth World in 1967, there were probably countless adjustments made between then and when Kirby finally was able to get started on his ideas.
Carmine doesn't enter into it!
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Post by profh0011 on Apr 29, 2019 16:40:16 GMT -5
Yes, that information is from Evanier's foreword in the New Gods Omnibus which I own. After years of being the pencil pusher, Kirby wanted to step into an executive creative role and let others do the drudgery. But DC said no; they wanted him for his name and his art less than his story ideas. There are many who strongly suspect the higher-ups at DC were not really interested in Kirby at all... but simply in getting him AWAY from Marvel.
Something that has increasingly annoyed me, the more I look into the early 70s, is how, it seems every time DC hooked Kirby up with some other writer... it was one of their WORST writers. (O'Neil, Conway, Simon, Fleisher) They simply did not comprehend that Kirby was a far better writer than he already was an artist. it just happens that with Kirby, his writing & art were intrinsically linked. I guess he was never going to be the sort of person to put down his pencils and pick up a typewriter.
Funny enough... another of my top all-time favorite comics writers from the 70s-- Don McGregor-- it turns out, nearly-ALWAYS supplied rough page layouts to whichever artists were assigned to his books. In effect, he was writing the same way Harvey Kurtzman was-- FULL SCRIPT and layouts!
And whatta ya know? Both Kirby & McGregor were badly treated by the big publishers, quite possibly because they were "bucking the systems".
I worked in mechanical drafting for 20 years, and as different an industry as that is from comics, I can tell you with absolute certainty-- many people do not like seeing anyone whose work is MUCH BETTER than their own.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 29, 2019 18:01:55 GMT -5
A lot of Kirby's aesthetic has been ripped off/copied/dissected/spliced, but he's still the best technology-indistinguishable-from-magic artist in comics ever.
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Post by rberman on Apr 29, 2019 22:08:45 GMT -5
Jimmy Olsen #135 “The Evil Factory!” (January 1971) The Story: Two evil scientists, Mokkari and Simyan, have a lab where they are growing humanoid clones in sizes from “action figure” to “tall as a tree.” They are bred to resemble not political figures or someone really useful, but rather Superman, Jimmy Olsen, and the Newsboy Legion. One of the giant ones is sprayed with Kryptonite to make him extra-dangerous to Superman. He goes berserk and can’t be controlled, so they teleport him away on a mission of destruction to “The Earth Project.”  Jude, leader of the Hairies on the Mountain of Judgement super-bus, sends Superman, Jimmy Olsen, and the Newsboy Legion on up the road to The Project, which turns out to be an American military installation. So much for a story about teen rebels sticking it to The Man, eh? Now the story is, “See what the military-industrial complex can do with your tax dollars?”  Not only that, but the Newsboy Legion’s dads all work here, and the kids aren’t regular kids; they are clones, literally chips off of the respective old blocks. This whole youth revolution theme died remarkably quickly; now it’s “Father Knows Best.”  The Kryptonite Giant materializes right beside Superman (convenient!) and begins whaling on him. He loses his mask in the fight and is revealed to be a giant clone of Jimmy Olsen, thereby justifying the “Jimmy attacks Superman” cover image. Superman goes down for the count! In response, the adult Newsboys (Newsmen?) activate a clone they’ve been holding in reserve: the clone of the Golden Age hero The Guardian!  My Two Cents: Simyan and Mokkari look memorable and suitable creepy. They are from Apokolips, wherever that is.  Speaking of creepy, the U.S. Army has made at least 43 clones of Jimmy Olsen using cell samples taken without his permission. Superman thinks it’s great. But the Jimmy clones are the same age as Jimmy, whereas the kid Newsboys were cloned from their middle aged sires, so there’s some variability (or perhaps inconsistency) in how all this works.  In an editorial page, Kirby explains that the Hairies are morally perfect because they were raised outside society, so we’ll probably hate them and try to destroy them. This is an insufficient explanation. Only perfect people could form a perfect society, so the Hairies must be different from us at a deep level, not just because they haven’t been corrupted by our crummy culture. It’s been said that conservatives place moral failure at the personal level, while liberals place it at the societal level. If so, Kirby is expressing the liberal party line here. 
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 30, 2019 11:04:26 GMT -5
I put my thoughts into my thread about the 4th World; but, would add that the DNA Project is some of the most entertaining stuff of the Kirby work. Kirby had a real enthusiasm for what he was doing and he was hitting you with concepts and characters left and right, many completely gonzo. That soon wore off and we get more Jimmy and the Newsboys adventures. Editorial interference was part of it.
These concepts would serve the future well, far more than the other 4th World stuff, with the Cadmus Project in the Triangle Superman books (especially with Karl Kesel). Nobody ever seemed to get the New Gods or Mr Miracle just right (more NG than MM); but, the Cadmus stuff tapped into a lot of what made this stuff fun, with some modern tweaking.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Apr 30, 2019 11:51:26 GMT -5
I've always regretted this nifty helmet design has never been seen again after this single panel!
I also find it strange that Kirby is all agog about how wonderful the Project is when they're actually creating government-owned slaves.
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Post by rberman on Apr 30, 2019 17:48:37 GMT -5
The Forever People #1 “In Search of a Dream!” (March 1971) The Story: A Boom Tube opens on some American highway, spitting out one of Kirby’s giant tricycles, towing a wagon and holding four enthusiastic youth. Their sudden appearance causes Bobby and Laurie’s convertible to careen off of a cliff (again, what state are we in?), forcing them to use their cubical “Mother Box” to telekinetically save the day. Bobby takes a photo of the Boom Tube before it disappears.  A Mafioso from Intergang and two sci-fi soldiers spy from the bushes; apparently they knew right where the Boom Tube would open. Darkseid instructs them to tail the youths.  News of the Boom Tube travels fast, and Superman is able to see the details in Bobby’s photograph, including a futuristic city at the other end of the Tube. Clark Kent has somehow heard of “this Supertown” and wants to find this place inhabited by others like himself.  The Intergang trio attack Superman just as he lands beside the Forever People.  Superman easily withstands the Intergang’s “Sigma Blast” attack, then throws a huge log though the passenger cabin of their helicopter. Somehow all three (no, now it’s four somehow) Intergang goons parachute to safety, just like on G.I. Joe cartoons. The Forever People welcome Superman, assuming he must be from Supertown because he survived the Sigma Blast, which apparently marks his attackers as agents of Darkseid.  Mother Box leads our heroes to a tunnel entrance concealed in a field. First comes a booby trap gas attack. Then a pair of subterranean monsters strong enough to incapacitate Superman. The Forever People put their hands on the Mother Box…  … and transform into an Infinity Man who is strong enough to rescue Superman and defeat the two monsters “with almost effortless ease.” The list of people who make Superman look like a chump in this saga is getting rather long already! Kirby is showing that the New Gods are on a whole other power level than most superheroes and villains.  “Come out from hiding, Darkseid!” says Infinity Man, and Darkseid steps out from behind a barn, wearing a cape. He returns Beautiful Dreamer to her friends, still dreaming; he was unable to wrest the secret of the Anti-Life Equation from her, so he’s just returning her unharmed, which is a nice gesture I suppose. But after he teleports away, a bomb in Dreamer’s bed almost kills everyone present; only Superman’s quick reflexes save himself, Infinity Man, and Beautiful Dreamer, so maybe Darkseid wasn’t being so magnanimous after all.  Infinity Man transforms back into the quartet of Forever People, who summon a Boom Tube for him. Would Superman like to go to Supertown? Yes, he would! He starts flying down the Boom Tube but chickens out halfway, fearful that he will be abandoning Earth. So he reluctantly turns around and returns home.  My Two Cents: These new characters fit well into the Five Man Band archetype. Mark Moonrider is the leader; Big Bear is the muscle and pilot (a la Ben Grimm, the FF member with which Kirby most empathized); Serifan (he in the cowboy duds) is the romantic guy. Vykin the Black is, um, black, as well as the Gadget Guy who has the Mother Box. Once Beautiful Dreamer arrives to be the Girl, the team will be complete.  Kirby is giving Superman a Bronze Age characterization, a Marvel characterization even, as a sad sack torn between loneliness and duty.  “Beautiful Dreamer” was a popular song, one of the last written by Stephen Foster, the king of mid 19th century American pop music. But once the four guys put their hands on the Mother Box and were replaced by one mysterious and strong guy, an Eternal Man who could best the foe that Superman could not, I suddenly knew where Team America got their inspiration.
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Post by profh0011 on Apr 30, 2019 21:55:54 GMT -5
Kirby is giving Superman a Bronze Age characterization, a Marvel characterization even, as a sad sack torn between loneliness and duty. … and transform into an Infinity Man... Forever People / Infinity Man -- shades of Billy Batson / Captain Marvel or Hayata / Ultra Man (crazy enough, it was a home care client of mine who pointed out this similarity to me, which I should have noticed decades earlier).
My theory about Superman being slotted into THOR's place (had Kirby not moved to DC-- note, super-strong, blue suit, red cape) further suggested that time in the other dimension might not move the same as here. Imagine if the actual Ragnarok had come (again) destroying Asgard only for it to be reborn... but, if Thor had SURVIVED the destruction by coming to Earth (the way Superman did Krypton), and, on learning about "Supertown", would want more than anything to find out if it was in fact connected with his lost homeworld.
Many (Marvel!) comics fans over the decades have claimed Kirby "couldn't write". Yet here he was, making SUPERMAN more interesting than he'd been since the early 1940s... and he wasn't even writing the guy's own book!
I rather picture the 1st JIMMY OLSEN episode as taking place shortly after FP #1.
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Post by rberman on May 4, 2019 16:28:25 GMT -5
New Gods #1 “Orion Fights for Earth!” (March 1971) The Story: Let's start with some mythic backstory, OK? The opening pages depict Ragnarok (without calling it that), the destruction of Asgard (without calling it that), and the formation of two new worlds: one for good guys, and one for bad guys. Bye bye, Norse values. Manicheanism, here we come! Equal and opposite gods, duking it out.  Now fast forward to present day. Orion flies home from an unspecified mission in space and is greeted by Lightray and Highfather Izaya. The three “New Gods” bear strong archetypal resemblances to the old gods Ares, Hermes (or Apollo, or both), and Zeus. New Genesis is their futuristic city floating above an Edenic planet. Lightray calls his people “Celestials,” which was already a thing at Marvel by now. Orion hints that his heart is divided between New Genesis and Apokolips.  Kirby info-dumps lots of exposition that wouldn’t really be needed between these characters but is essential for the readers. Izaya talks to Orion about the Source Wall which is his power source (hence the name), and which Orion says is the “Life Equation.” Metron shows up, a sort of Pluto character beholden to neither New Genesis nor Apokolips, an amoral scientist. Izaya identifies the Life Equation with free will, while Metron associates the Anti-Life Equation with thought control, i.e. fascism. A finger (of God?) writes an oracle upon the Source Wall. Metron implies that Orion is the son of Darkseid.  Orion flies to Apokolips and fights his way through many disfigured foes until he reaches Kalibak, a neanderthal who rules in Darkseid’s absence. They fight until Metron shows up, immobilizes Kalibak, and tells Orion that Darkseid is actually on Earth, building a web of subterranean tunnels connecting major cities.  Darkseid has brought four humans (in particular, four Americans) to Apokolips to see if he can download the secret of Anti-Life from their minds. Why these four? We don’t know. His quest may take a while if he has to search the entire population of the world in four-person groups. Orion frees them and returns them to earth in a Boom Tube, then declares his intention to find and battle Darkseid on Earth, thereby justifying the title of this issue.  My Two Cents: This series was originally going to be named after Orion, but for whatever reason it came to be named after the whole gang. “New Gods” is provocative and could be seen as a challenge to Judaism and Christianity, though that isn’t what Kirby had in mind. Indeed from a Judeo-Christian perspective, a new god is no god at all, lacking the divine characteristics of eternality and aseity (self-sufficient existence). Kirby's new gods act pretty much like the same superheroes and villains that all the other comic book deities and devils do. Inscrutability is not their thing. The first half of this issue is straight world-building exposition; the second half mixes exposition and combat. The origin of this mythology as a continuation of Kirby’s Marvel work on Thor is pretty transparent. We’ve got Asgard and a new generation of gods who, like the Eternals, just the Greek gods rebranded. Orion and Metron get Greek names; Izaya gets a phoneticized Hebrew name; Lightray gets a superhero name. Metron describes the destruction of the Bifrost rainbow bridge (without calling it that): 
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Post by codystarbuck on May 4, 2019 18:15:40 GMT -5
I don't know that you can assign his influence as Greek mythology; certainly there are parallels. However, you can find the same archetypes in most myth cycles. Izaya is definitely a Jewish figure, far more than a Greek. Apart from being the ruler of the New Gods, he is more of an Old Testament figure, an Abraham and a Moses, with elements drawn from many Old testament figures, prophets and heroes. Orion is definitely not the Greek image, under the helmet. In many ways, Kirby rejects that Greek or Teutonic ideal, as Orion is scarred and bestial, in true appearance. Granted, that is due to birth on Apokolips, rather than new Genesis. In Greek myth, he is closer to Hephaestus. Lightray you can point to and say Greek, though you could also say Egyptian or Norse. There are many lightbringers, fleet of foot.
Metron is another who I would ascribe more Jewish traits to, as a sort of rabbinical scholar, in search of ultimate knowledge. Really, he is more the idea of pure science, without the human aspect. Don't forget, as much as Kirby was interested in myt, he was also a lifelong lover of science fiction. You can find as many parallels to sci-fi classics, like AE Van Vogt and EE Smith.
Celestials were not cruising around Marvel, yet. There were cosmic beings; but, the actual Celestials don't appear until Kirby's return, in the Eternals. The 4th World is an evolution of what Kirby had been doing in Thor and Fantastic Four and Eternals would be an evolution, or a redrafting of the 4th World.
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Post by profh0011 on May 5, 2019 12:03:08 GMT -5
The basic concept for the "New Gods" is so simple that many fans and even comics pros often overlook it (or have never even been aware of it). Kirby's idea was, in olden times, there were "gods" who represented various things in existence and nature. What would "new" gods be like for the modern day? Kirby also continued his habit of modeling characters on real people. A clear example here is Metron, based on physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer. According to Wikipedia... " was director of the Los Alamos Laboratory and responsible for the research and design of an atomic bomb. He is often known as the “father of the atomic bomb."  |
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