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Post by spoon on Mar 26, 2021 23:17:31 GMT -5
You're certainly welcome. Winter Soldier is one of my top 3 Marvel films, and I've watched it more times than I can count. Just wish Cap had a proper 3rd movie like all the others instead of having to shoe horn in the Avengers for no real reason Yeah, it's too bad that a loose adaptation of a great Captain America comic storyline stars his supporting cast, because he basically had one modern movie as the solo star plus Avengers 2.5. It's not that I didn't like Civil War, but Cap should have a true third solo movie at least.
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Post by spoon on Mar 26, 2021 23:36:06 GMT -5
So far it's pretty good, but not great. With six episodes total for the season, we're already a third of the way into show. At this rate, I think the whole thing will feel more a long movie that a series. I'm conflicted about the storyline they've chosen to roughly adapt. I love "The Captain" arc where Cap quits and is replacing by John Walker, so I'm glad they found a way to adapt it even with Steve Rogers done in the MCU. It's actually a clever way to rework it, because a replacement would also work in this scenario. But if they're going to adapt a great comic book storyline, I think it's important to do it really well, because it's unlikely you'll get another shot. You don't want to miss out on the full potential. Granted there have two rough adaptations of the Dark Phoenix Saga, but we've probably missed out on the opportunity to see that done right. In this case, I feel that the portrayal of John Walker is too subtle. Lack of subtlety, nuance, etc. is a key flaw for Walker. He doesn't think enough first. He's overconfident. He's jingoistic. In this series, he comes across as actually too thoughtful. At points, he almost seemed more reasonable than Winter Soldier.
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Post by Batflunkie on Mar 27, 2021 15:38:49 GMT -5
Just wish Cap had a proper 3rd movie like all the others instead of having to shoe horn in the Avengers for no real reason Yeah, it's too bad that a loose adaptation of a great Captain America comic storyline stars his supporting cast, because he basically had one modern movie as the solo star plus Avengers 2.5. It's not that I didn't like Civil War, but Cap should have a true third solo movie at least. Falcon & Winter Soldier might be as close as we get to a proper 3rd Cap movie that doesn't even star Steve. I couldn't think of a better way to make one to be perfectly honest
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 27, 2021 23:05:28 GMT -5
Falcon & Winter Soldier might be as close as we get to a proper 3rd Cap movie that doesn't even star Steve. I couldn't think of a better way to make one to be perfectly honest I agree that Civil War was not a true third act for Captain America, with the exception of the Bucky sub-plot. The rest was MCU overdosing and looking for less than reasonable ways for Black Panther and Spider-Man to be dropped into the MCU. So far, this series is in the building process, taking its time before whatever big conflict unfolds. I do like that many of Captain America's MCU villains (Batroc and Zemo, so far)--who played the same role in the comics--are back in this series. This show, like most of the Cap movies, is so far removed from the general plots and over-the-top everything of the MCU that it almost inhabits its own universe. That's not a bad thing, either.
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Post by spoon on Apr 2, 2021 13:26:44 GMT -5
I found episode 3 so underwhelming. We're halfway through, and not nearly enough progress to greatness I want to see. But there are a lot of flaws particular to this episode. 1) How the heck do you have an episode take place in Madripoor and have virtually no Asian characters (speaking roles or even extras)?! 2) Looks like it was snowing in whatever location they had stand in for Madripoor. Oops. 3) They make Sam look like a screw-up by having him bring his phone to that meeting and not put it on silent. And if he's supposed to be posing as a tough guy, why wouldn't he just say "$@*# you" when Ms. Frosted Hair demanded he answer his phone on speaker phone? 4) It's not heroic and pretty stupid to help break Baron Zemo out of prison and work with him just to get super-soldier leads. They should find another way. At least, try to get clearance for a temporary release and monitor him more securely. Sam and Bucky are giving him a lot of control of the situation, and it's totally foreseeable that Zemo will do bad stuff. Any harm he does is on their heads. 5) On a related point, John Walker is actually coming across as more discipline and reasonable that Sam and Bucky. This is a problem. He needs to be a loose cannon for this storyline to work. 6) Sharon Carter seems out of character, even given the circumstances. 7) The action sequence with Sharon protecting the container didn't work. When she has one bounty in a hold, others should be coming and would take her out while she's vulnerable. 9) I realize Erin Kellyman as Karli Morganthau/Flag Smasher is supposed to be casting against type, but it just doesn't work. 10) The goals/ideology of the Flag Smashers is messy and unclear, and I just don't care. 11) The club scene in High Town seemed cheesy and poorly done. There were not nearly enough extras. 12) Falcon and Winter Soldier don't come across as nearly competent enough. Are they going for wacky buddy action comedy flick? 13) Falcon without his wings is underwhelming.
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Post by Batflunkie on Apr 2, 2021 14:02:56 GMT -5
I found episode 3 so underwhelming. We're halfway through, and not nearly enough progress to greatness I want to see. But there are a lot of flaws particular to this episode. Same, especially after how good episode 2 was. I didn't expect such a large amount of "growing pains" halfway into a six episode show. Maybe it'll come together better in later episodes, who knows?
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Post by majestic on Apr 3, 2021 8:51:03 GMT -5
I am bored with it. It still holds true. Marvel does movies better than DC. And DC does TV better than Marvel.
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Post by The Captain on Apr 3, 2021 9:16:12 GMT -5
There's just something "off" about this show. It doesn't seem to know if it wants to be a buddy comedy, a serious mystery/espionage story, a straight action flick, or something else entirely, but the various elements aren't coming together in any kind of cohesive manner. {Spoiler: Click to show} Part of what is infuriating about the Flag Smashers' plan/motivation is that the backstory for what happened after the "return" hasn't been well articulated. They keep saying that people were displaced by the returned folks and that isn't fair, but WHY were people displaced? Who is kicking people out of their homes and into refugee camps because of the returning folks? None of it makes any sense whatsoever.
They are COMPLETELY wasting John Walker. 10 seconds of screen time in the first episode, less than 3 minutes in the third. It seems the only reason he exists is so that the Bucky can bitch at Sam about "giving up the shield", when he should be a much-bigger part of the story.
My younger daughter's take on Sharon was "I don't like her any more. She seems rude." Couldn't agree more. Completely out of character and just non-sensical motivation; she is forced out of the US and SHIELD, so now she's a stolen art dealer in Madripoor. Aunt Peggy would be rolling over in her grave.
The utter recklessness of breaking Zemo out of prison, without knowing that he was a man of vast wealth and means and will eventually use them to get away from them was just another piss-poor play by Sam and Bucky. It's almost like they're writing them as incompetent bumblers to just move the story along.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 3, 2021 11:18:39 GMT -5
Totally agree with you guys... that was not a good episode that made little sense on alot of levels. When Wandavision was going, I was wondering why the Avengers didn't intervene.. now I see that they're not capable. Very disappointed in Falcon's portrayal in particular so far. Hopefully they salvage it, because I'm glad they're moving their plot forward instead of making endless prequels, but so far we just have hints of good ideas and a bad show.
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Apr 3, 2021 13:07:54 GMT -5
Yeah, that was a disappointing and at times nonsensical (not to mention confusing) episode. The potential for greatness is here based on the source material, but so far the output has been underwhelming
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Post by String on Apr 5, 2021 12:24:52 GMT -5
A few thoughts: {Spoiler: Click to show} Walker does seem more reasonable which is unexpected. When that guy spit in his face, I totally expected Walker to respond by beating the tar out of him. Merely slamming him into a support beam doesn't sell how unstable he should be. {Spoiler: Click to show} I don't understand Sharon here. She's been on the run for so long that she's now a criminal fence? If Bucky was pardoned, then shouldn't she had been as well? Now I have to wonder if she's in league with the Power Broker or at least knows he is. I didn't have a problem per se with Zemo or even with how he escaped. I think his motivation fits in well with Sam & Bucky's goals here. Overall though, I see it as when it comes to Captain America identity and his shield, these four characters (Sam, Bucky, Zemo, Walker) each have their own idea of how that symbol should be viewed and used. They've started touching upon that here with their conversations on Zemo's plane but it's coming across as kinda muddled so far (especially if Walker isn't being portrayed as he could be from the comics). But by far, the sweetest bit: {Spoiler: Click to show} They name-dropped Latvia. Oh yeah.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 5, 2021 12:36:11 GMT -5
I thought it was interesting that they used Madripoor which has, as far as I know, been primarily an X-Men thing.
I'll stick with this through the end, but I'm not nearly as invested in it as I was in Wandavision.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 13:05:15 GMT -5
A few thoughts: {Spoiler: Click to show} Walker does seem more reasonable which is unexpected. When that guy spit in his face, I totally expected Walker to respond by beating the tar out of him. Merely slamming him into a support beam doesn't sell how unstable he should be. {Spoiler: Click to show} I don't understand Sharon here. She's been on the run for so long that she's now a criminal fence? If Bucky was pardoned, then shouldn't she had been as well? Now I have to wonder if she's in league with the Power Broker or at least knows he is. I didn't have a problem per se with Zemo or even with how he escaped. I think his motivation fits in well with Sam & Bucky's goals here. Overall though, I see it as when it comes to Captain America identity and his shield, these four characters (Sam, Bucky, Zemo, Walker) each have their own idea of how that symbol should be viewed and used. They've started touching upon that here with their conversations on Zemo's plane but it's coming across as kinda muddled so far (especially if Walker isn't being portrayed as he could be from the comics). But by far, the sweetest bit: {Spoiler: Click to show} They name-dropped Latvia. Oh yeah. Response to your second spoiler about Sharon I think there's a lot more going on with Sharon than we've seen so far. The last bit with her when she returns to her car with a driver waiting (and why would a driver be waiting for her when this was all ad hoc) and what she said to the driver indicates there's more than meets the eye here. IIRC she was working for the CIA (Langley) in Civil War, and she is obviously working for someone now, not a free agent. I think the role as a fence/art dealer/thief is just that, a role-a cover for her presence in Madripoor to give her access to all levels of society there. I think she is doing something deep undercover working for someone. I don't think she just happened to be in the bar and saw Sam and Bucky, I don't think it was a spur of the moment save their ass thing to kill Selby-that was probably her mission goal and was scouting things out when Sam/Buck/Zemo showed up and gave her the distraction to get access to Selby-there were lots of ways she could have gotten them out of that jam without killing Selby, but elimination Selby with the bonus of shifting blame to another target keeping her organization/boss in the clear was too good an opportunity to pass up. I've seen some speculation she is actually working for the Power Broker, I am not sure about that, but I do think she is the asset on the ground in Madripoor for somebody, not acting on her own and not making her living as an illegal art dealer (not to mention she would have needed some kind of huge financial stake to set up that gig initially that she didn't have when we last saw her on the run in Civil War, so who staked her? As for changes in attitude-it's been 7 years Marvel time since we saw her last. In that time she either died for 5 years and came back (unlikely since it would tough to set up that fence gig in the 6 months since the blip ended) or she's lived through seeing her peers fail and half the world dying, including possibly many people she cared about personally, seeing the remaining world go to hell, living through that hell, and then having to cope with everyone coming back. I think a lot of people here are underestimating how traumatic living in a world with the blip would be and how devastating that would be on the psyche of the survivors and the infrastructure of that world. Hell look at how traumatic 2020 was in our world and how it's affected people, now magnify that to a degree where half the world died instantly and unexpectedly and the lost year was 5 years and then suddenly everyone came back. That's going to change people, some drastically, so I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to characterizations if they seem different post-blip than they were pre-blip. Nobody is going to go through that unchanged. As to Sharon tearing through the ranks in the stockyards so easily and their lack of tactics-they were untrained thugs looking to cash in on a bounty, low-level mercs at best. They didn't work as a team because they were out to get the bounty for themselves, not share it with a large group of partners. When greed and everyman for themselves are the rule of the day, you're not going to see a lot of good strategy and tactics on their part, so it makes sense a highly trained opponent like Sharon would tear through them in that context.
I'll add a little more speculation as to why they released Zemo, or specifically why Bucky set Zemo free. He's the White Wolf. We saw the name in the movies and we see it confirmed and established in the show. In the comics, the White Wolf is not just a nickname or a pet name given to a guest in Wakanda, it's a position, a role. The person who does Wakanda's dirty work when Wakanda wants plausible deniability. My guess is that there are factions in Wakanda who want Zemo to pay more permanently than rotting in a cell playing chess and reading for killing T'Chaka. But Wakanda can do anything above the board to achieve that goal. But when a situation arises, such as the discovery of the super soldier serum, where Zemo's cooperation/knowledge is a factor, it creates an opportunity to put Zemo back on the board as a viable target Wakanda can respond to, so having the White Wolf engineer an escape as part of that leaving no chance Wakanda is implicated (and Winter Soldier was good enough to even give himself some plausible deniability in this). After Zemo is out, Bucky stays close to Zemo and waits for contact/instructions from Wakanda. He didn't randomly spot those Wakandan tech beads, he was looking for some sign from Wakanda and I don't think finding Ayo there at the end was a surprise to Bucky, he was expecting something of the sort. I am finding this show to be like an onion. There's so many layers to peel away and layers beneath the surface that have only been hinted at so far. I am eager to see how it all plays out and to see who the hands are that have been moving the chess pieces on the boards we have seen so far. in some of the better espionage type stories, the audience/readers are left guessing the why and wherefores of people's actions and the identities/loyalties of some of the players until the final act's climax, with many red herrings, twists, double dealings, etc. sprinkled in throughout like ingredients in a good chili. They are added gradually as it cooks but the chili never tastes quite right until the end when everything comes together, and all the ingredients combine to pay off for the finish. We may be three episodes in/half way through, but the creators are still sprinkling in those ingredients gradually as it cooks. I am waiting to see how it all comes together before I decide if they nailed the chili or spoiled it, because in this kind of alchemy, you can't ever really know until you see how it comes together. -M
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Apr 5, 2021 15:20:37 GMT -5
Oh yeah, you cant write a show off until it all plays out. I've been preaching this for years, so I feel kinda bad with my negative assessment of the last episode. I think I'm guilty of wanting this to be awesome because I'm a longtime fan of Captain America and his supporting cast, so I'm probably grading it more harshly than I should. Hopefully we're all happy after the final episode and look back at this as a blip (pun intended)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 15:24:34 GMT -5
But by far, the sweetest bit: {Spoiler: Click to show} They name-dropped Latvia. Oh yeah. I'd be more excited if they name dropped Latveria. -M
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