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Post by Ricky Jackson on Apr 24, 2021 13:06:03 GMT -5
It was definitely an uneven series but in the end I think the highs outweighed the lows. The overall story and themes were strong. Its main weakness was having a bit too much filler over 6 episodes. The jury is out on whether making Carter a de facto villain makes sense, as obviously this is a storyline that will continue in future films/tv shows
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 14:00:31 GMT -5
It was definitely an uneven series but in the end I think the highs outweighed the lows. The overall story and themes were strong. Its main weakness was having a bit too much filler over 6 episodes. The jury is out on whether making Carter a de facto villain makes sense, as obviously this is a storyline that will continue in future films/tv shows My guess is her pillaging of tech is what will lead into the Armor Wars Disney+ series that they announced. There's also some speculation that since the movie showed Sharon was dusted during the blip and her set up as the Power Broker was so elaborate just 6 months later that this isn't the real Sharon, but possibly a Skrull who took her identity during the blip and this might be a lead in to the Secret Invasion series. I am more doubtful of that then the tech to Armor Wars angle, but it is one idea out there that puts the move into a larger context. -M
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Post by Batflunkie on Apr 24, 2021 19:40:54 GMT -5
I think there's a good movie that could have been made with the footage they shot here but as a series the plotting was a bit messy with too much time spent on things that ultimately didn't matter. For me, it really seems like this was a film treatment that got stretched out to be a series, while Wandavision was something that was created with a series in mind. Agreed. I still think that, overall, it's a "B+" at best
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Post by impulse on Apr 25, 2021 13:50:14 GMT -5
Hey, if we can keep getting B+ superhero shows as default TV content, this aging nerd will remain happy.
Agreed that a tight movie could probably have been a little better format for this story, but I enjoyed it.
The only thing I really wanted more of was Bucky’s conversation at the end. The amount of it they showed made it kinda awkward. They should have shown more or left it all to the imagination I think.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 25, 2021 23:25:56 GMT -5
I'm seeing folks on facebook calling this the greatest action television series of all time, now. That's gotta by the hype talking, right?
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Post by thwhtguardian on Apr 26, 2021 8:32:36 GMT -5
I'm seeing folks on facebook calling this the greatest action television series of all time, now. That's gotta by the hype talking, right? I mean, from a pure action stand point this probably has the best fight scenes around and it gives you some really cinematic big action set pieces that I've never seen rivaled.
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Post by impulse on Apr 26, 2021 8:46:51 GMT -5
I'm seeing folks on facebook calling this the greatest action television series of all time, now. That's gotta by the hype talking, right? That's got to be hyperbole/the hype. I suppose there is a case to be made for it being the most cinematic/big-budget looking TV show as it is pretty close to MCU movie levels of production and special effects, so maybe in terms of presentation, I guess. But even as someone who enjoyed the show, it was pretty obviously cheesy at times and not close to perfect. You could argue that Daredevil and Game of Thrones had better individual action sequences just off the top of my head. It tackled some pretty significant themes, sure, and recognizing the historical treatment of the black community in US history and making a black Captain America were significant, but as a show? I wouldn't call it the best of any kind* of show. *As in genre or style. It wasn't the best executed. I am not at all diminishing the importance of themes or how it tackled race, etc. They did that very well.
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Post by Randle-El on Apr 27, 2021 11:56:03 GMT -5
Finally got to see the last episode. Overall, I'd say the series was a competently entertaining effort, but not especially risky or groundbreaking. I'm in agreement with most in this thread that the latter half of the series was stronger, and that the show could have performed well as a movie in condensed form. From the perspective of a "dramatic" story, the plots regarding Bucky's redemption, Sam's internal struggle, and the government's treatment of black soldiers were pulled off well enough to move the action along, but would not have been enough to make a compelling story on their own. There are other Marvel productions that have handled "big ideas" better than FatWS.
Some of the Wandavision comparison are, I think, a bit unfair. As with their films, Marvel is trying to make different types of shows that might appeal to different audiences while trying to service larger narratives. Wandavision was a trippy mystery/exploration of grief, FatWS is pretty much a basic action/adventure show. For what it's trying to be, I think it was done well enough.
Some things I didn't like:
I never clearly understood the Flag Smashers' motivations. I think part of this is because the post-Endgame MCU productions have been vague regarding the geopolitical state of the world. We are meant to understand that bringing back half of the world's previously disappeared population had massive repercussions on the world's governments (understandably). And we are meant to understand that the Flag Smashers' believed things were better before those people came back. But how does that translate into "one world, one people"? Was it ever established that the Snap led to universal open borders?
On Sharon Carter, {Spoiler: Click to show} I dislike the reveal that she apparently is the Power Broker. I'm not against the idea of her doing a heel turn in principle, and they present some solid reasons why she might have done it. But I don't think the twist was earned. In the previous films she is presented as a heroic, true blue believer in doing The Right Thing. While it's certainly possible that such a character could take dark turn, it's just not plausible to me with what they've shown us so far. They would either need to have shown her as a character with an existing dark side to her, or they need to have shown the hardships that shaped her into her current state. The MCU has done neither so the whole twist just feels like it was pulled out of thin air.
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Post by impulse on Apr 27, 2021 12:26:31 GMT -5
I never clearly understood the Flag Smashers' motivations. I think part of this is because the post-Endgame MCU productions have been vague regarding the geopolitical state of the world. We are meant to understand that bringing back half of the world's previously disappeared population had massive repercussions on the world's governments (understandably). And we are meant to understand that the Flag Smashers' believed things were better before those people came back. But how does that translate into "one world, one people"? Was it ever established that the Snap led to universal open borders? Basically, yes. The old divisions of national borders and scarcity were blown up when half the population disappeared. They never said it was explicitly open borders, but that was in effect he case. After people came back, governments resumed old boundaries and hostilities, people were forcibly relocated and rounded up into camps, etc. The Flag Smashers wanted to move it more toward people of Earth as opposed to bickering nations. Though they were primary there as a plot device for Bucky, Sam and John to have arcs as opposed to being a main character or focus themselves. I pretty much agree with you, and I think they are going to go with the she was a Skrull all along twist. Not that she couldn't flip, but they have not earned it.{Spoiler: Click to show}
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Post by spoon on Apr 29, 2021 21:12:27 GMT -5
I finally watched episodes 5 and 6. I thought they were definitely better than 3 and 4, but still not great. I liked how episode 5 brought the Sam and Bucky dynamic that's a strength of the series back to the forefront. Episode 6 had some really nice action sequences. But a lot of the flaws remained. The GRC meeting was really stupid. It was unrealistic way to be heavy-handed. I'm supposed to believe that nations are going to bypass the treaty process or the United Nations. And where supposed to believe this seasoned politician would say in a meeting where there's disagreement in front of everyone, "Why do we even need to vote?" Why not just have appear on camera to the world, twirling a moustache and toasting "To Evil"? I agree that the Flagsmashers's beliefs were muddled. It didn't help that most of them came across as model/actors with know-it-all lectures. I grew sick of everyone calling Karli Morganthau by her first name, like she was their pal. And they bent over backward to understand her. She was so tremendously annoying. Karli and Pacino's character from Insomnia are probably the two fictional characters I most wanted to see killed off in hideous fashion just because they annoyed me. Regarding Sharon Carter I agree with those who have written that the villanous turn was completely unearned and out of character. I really hope it's a Skrull in her place.
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Post by spoon on May 1, 2021 10:56:40 GMT -5
I noticed an interesting detail in the credits. I believe Sebastian Stan is billed first in every episode with Anthony Mackie billed second, until the final episode when Mackie is elevated to first billing. This is in contrast to Wandavision, in which Olsen and Bettany alternated first billing from episode to episode. Olsen got first billing in more episodes because it was an odd number of episodes.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 1, 2021 11:44:50 GMT -5
I noticed an interesting detail in the credits. I believe Sebastian Stan is billed first in every episode with Anthony Mackie billed second, until the final episode when Mackie is elevated to first billing. This is in contrast to Wandavision, in which Olsen and Bettany alternated first billing from episode to episode. Olsen got first billing in more episodes because it was an odd number of episodes. Interesting. I always saw it as being Wanda's show. She certainly had more scenes and more lines.
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Post by zaku on May 7, 2021 15:33:06 GMT -5
I'm rewatching the last episode right now. {Spoiler: Click to show}"People who don't matter".
Girl, are you really taunting a man with serious anger issues? Someone who had showed his worth in a face-to-face fight with you even BEFORE taking the super serum?
What are you trying to achieve here? A suicide-by-supersoldier? At the end of the day, you are just a kid without any training whatsoever, he is a fu##ing elite soldier.
What she was trying to do? Some kind of apology? She was really taunting him? Because whatever she wanted to do, she really did it wrong.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 9, 2021 12:35:17 GMT -5
I finished watching the whole thing, last night. I'm fairly ambivalent about the whole MCU, as I find the bulk of it entertaining enough while I watch it, but not especially deep. The Captain America stuff has been probably the strongest, in my estimation and that translated well here. I liked how they used John Walker, more or less taking it straight from the Gruenwald comics, minus Steve Rogers as The Captain, both with a costume that has no logical rationale and a name that just sound silly. I liked the stuff with Sam and his family and his attempts to keep his ideals against everyone telling him he is wrong. I liked Bucky's attempts at redemption. I liked the complexity of Zemo. The action was exciting and not too ridiculous or CGI fantasy. The way they have Sam integrate his wings and jets in combat is very good, from a tactical standpoint.
I did not feel that the world situation was established clearly enough to really give the Flag Smashers gravitas. It didn't seem that different from the anarchists of the original comic storyline. I think they had too many super-soldier versions, but only developed Karli to any degree, which devalued the rest.
Sharon's character arc doesn't work for me. That is something that needed a hell of a lot more set-up. That just came across as plot twists for the sake of having them, rather than something rising organically, within the story.
The biggest problem I have is conceptual, but it is a factor in a lot of Hollywood productions, especially now. One, actors don't realistically portray soldiers, unless they go through Dale Dye's training camps. The 60s generation had mostly served in the Army, for at least a couple of years and could play soldiers. Modern actors never get near the military and play a writer's conception of what it is like. They substitute jargon for research and slap a uniform on an actor and that is supposed to work. That also translates into how soldiers fight in combat; and, specifically, super-soldiers. Steve went through elaborate training before and after his transformation. The serum improved his body; it didn't give him tactical skills and hand-to-hand combat training. Bucky was also a trained and experienced combat vet. Sam is a trained veteran. Karli and the other Flag Smashers? Nope. Sure, they are stronger and can move quicker; but, boxing and MMA have long shown that skill trumps size, until both skill levels are equal. Then, it's down to who can make the other fight their game. Karli and the others should be getting finessed by Walker and Bucky and even Sam, as he has enough gear to compensate for his strength level. The Dora Milage demonstrate that skill outclasses serum, in the fight at Zemo's, when Walker gets his butt handed to him (foreshadowing the ending).
The other problem is in the same realm, as I am so tired of Hollywood thinking that someone armed with a pistol can hold off multiple enemies with automatic weapons. It's an exercise in numbers. A pistol is a close-range weapon, with a more limited amount of ammunition. In a firefight, you lay down a heavy rate of fire to keep your enemies from being able to fire back, until they are neutralized (killed, wounded or captured). You can't just pop up and fire off 2 rounds from a 9mm if you have 30-50 rounds coming at you from more than one angle. And yet, our heroes do just that in Madripoor and elsewhere. It's the same Hollywood attention to detail that has Colt Peacemakers firing 8 rounds out of 6 cylinders, automatic weapons firing 85 rounds without changing magazines and .22 cal weapons knocking people against walls. It's a personal pet peeve, probably not shared by the majority of the audience, but it tends to take me out of things. You can really tell the difference when you get a director who pays attention, like Michael Mann (check out the bank heist fight in Heat) and anyone who works with Dale Dye's group for authenticity.
For the most part, the good outweighed the bad and the bad was mostly nit-picking and pacing. Honest Trailers (as usual) sums up my feelings pretty well....
Goldie's Spawn is pretty good.
I could have done without Valentina Allegra De Fontaine as the moment they gave her a comedic line it undercut anything mysterious. I hate what Marvel has done to that character, who was a hell of a lot coller under Steranko and even through the 70s. Ever since Nick Fury vs SHIELD she has been destroyed.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 9, 2021 12:38:42 GMT -5
ps The use of Isaiah Bradley and the portrayal, by Carl "MANTIS & Martian Manhunter" Lumley was excellent. Didn't realize it was him, at first, though he looked familiar. He's had long gaps between prominent live roles that I still picture him as the guy on Cagney & Lacey, when I hear his voicework in the DCAU.
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