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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 8:51:55 GMT -5
 Welcome to my attempt to create a home for continuity type debates, questions, snarky remarks, you name it. While DC's original Crisis may be the perennial poster child for such discussion, my thought is this could be a home for all types of reboot, retcon, and other continuity type topics, DC AND Marvel (and beyond if there are other thoughts). I'll reference some dialogue we were just having in the “ask a quick question” that made me think of starting this thread, and could be potential discussion points: zaku , quoting some of the summary work you put together on various “continuity periods” for DC: For fun I tried to recap the various DC mega-events and what impact they had on their universe. BEFORE CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS
The so-called "Pre-Crisis Multiverse" consisted on an infinite number of worlds, separated by different "vibrational frequencies". This was caused by Krona, who tampered somehow the birth of Creation creating infinite universes. You can't change the past, but you can have multiple possibile futures (like Kamandi's future and Legion's are both possibile futures of Earth-1). POST CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHSThere is only one universe, created by the merger of 5 pre-Crisis universes. There are no parallel worlds, but in theory the past can be changed. Some continuity changes are caused by Superboy Prime's punches. You can have multiple alternate timeline and possibile futures. POST ZERO HOURHal Jordan, using the residual energies of the previous Crisis, wants to rebuild the universe, also creating parallel worlds. He is stopped by our heroes, but the DC universe is still recreated with some changes compared to the Pre-Zero Hour version (for example a new Legion) and the alternative timelines which existed before ZH are eliminated. POST THE KINGDOM (Hypertime)In the mini The Kingdom the Hypertime is introduced. Hypertime is a network of alternate timelines that branch off from the DC Universe. These timelines sometimes overlap with each other, causing alterations in reality. Characters can cross from one timeline to another if needed. To be clear, they are not alternate worlds but alternate timelines, which can be born at any time and then merge again with the main timeline. POST INFINITE CRISISThe main DC universe is changed again and a new multiverse is born, but with only 52 new universes. These 52 universes were initially identical to the main one, but thanks to Mr. Mind's tampering they all become different from each other (some of them resemble some of the Pre-Crisis Earths). AFTER FLASHPOINT/NEW 52
We are the first real reboot after COIE. While in the previous crises after COIE there were more or less marked changes to the DC universe, here almost all the characters start from scratch, differentiating themselves from their pre-New 52 counterparts, even if some events of their past resemble the pre-reboot ones . There is still a multiverse made up of 52 universes. We will later find out that these changes were caused by Dr. Manhattan!!! (I will continue tomorrow...) , your comments on Marvel related discussion you thought might be interesting: (...) it might be interesting to dive into Marvel's handling (and eventual mangling) of continuity and retcons (i.e. just how to fit all of Captain America and Bucky's WW2 adventures of the Golden and retconned Silver-Modern Ages to a believable calendar of the war, since Cap WW2 stories were so great in volume). , you brought up discussion on Zero Hour (definitely interested in this one myself). If anyone finds this an interesting dedicated space for discussion, please feel free to fire away! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 9:51:14 GMT -5
BEFORE CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS
The so-called "Pre-Crisis Multiverse" consisted on an infinite number of worlds, separated by different "vibrational frequencies". This was caused by Krona, who tampered somehow the birth of Creation creating infinite universes. You can't change the past, but you can have multiple possibile futures ( like Kamandi's future and Legion's are both possibile futures of Earth-1). Let's talk about this one a bit. I would actually say the Legion was the "main timeline" future of Pre-Crisis Earth-1. It was pretty much accepted throughout the Silver and Bronze ages that the many interactions of 20th century characters in the 30th century and vice versa was the "norm". Mon-El would start in present day, and his millenium long Phantom Zone stay would directly culminate in his cure and ability to permanently join the Legion. The Legion would just be "called up" at times, Karate Kid would come back and have an extended stay in present day, etc. I think of Kamandi more as an "alternate" timeline concept...it was still canon, it was "knowable" in that he did interact with the more mainstream DC Universe occasionally, but not "time's straight arrow" if you will. |
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 24, 2023 12:02:32 GMT -5
BEFORE CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS
The so-called "Pre-Crisis Multiverse" consisted on an infinite number of worlds, separated by different "vibrational frequencies". This was caused by Krona, who tampered somehow the birth of Creation creating infinite universes. You can't change the past, but you can have multiple possibile futures ( like Kamandi's future and Legion's are both possibile futures of Earth-1). Let's talk about this one a bit. I would actually say the Legion was the "main timeline" future of Pre-Crisis Earth-1. It was pretty much accepted throughout the Silver and Bronze ages that the many interactions of 20th century characters in the 30th century and vice versa was the "norm". Mon-El would start in present day, and his millenium long Phantom Zone stay would directly culminate in his cure and ability to permanently join the Legion. The Legion would just be "called up" at times, Karate Kid would come back and have an extended stay in present day, etc. I think of Kamandi more as an "alternate" timeline concept...it was still canon, it was "knowable" in that he did interact with the more mainstream DC Universe occasionally, but not "time's straight arrow" if you will. Kamandi is one of the problems that was never adequately reconciled pre-COIE; he was clearly from a future not sharing / occupying the accepted prime DC time which was home to the LOSH, yet he interacted with / exposed his "world" to a present day DC character--namely Batman, as seen in The Brave and the Bold #120 (July, 1975). Kamandi's timeline was not written off as an entirely alternate future, or the result of his coma, but one Batman ended up hoping--
--his present-day world might work to make Kamandi's time a better place. In so many worlds, he established that Kamandi's era is a prime future--just like the LOSH, and that cannot be true, unless one maintained the loose, anything goes type of writing where timelines were concerned.
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Post by zaku on Sept 24, 2023 13:00:44 GMT -5
For fun I tried to recap the various DC mega-events and what impact they had on their universe. BEFORE CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS
The so-called "Pre-Crisis Multiverse" consisted on an infinite number of worlds, separated by different "vibrational frequencies". This was caused by Krona, who tampered somehow the birth of Creation creating infinite universes. You can't change the past, but you can have multiple possibile futures (like Kamandi's future and Legion's are both possibile futures of Earth-1). POST CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHSThere is only one universe, created by the merger of 5 pre-Crisis universes. There are no parallel worlds, but in theory the past can be changed. Some continuity changes are caused by Superboy Prime's punches. You can have multiple alternate timeline and possibile futures. POST ZERO HOURHal Jordan, using the residual energies of the previous Crisis, wants to rebuild the universe, also creating parallel worlds. He is stopped by our heroes, but the DC universe is still recreated with some changes compared to the Pre-Zero Hour version (for example a new Legion) and the alternative timelines which existed before ZH are eliminated. POST THE KINGDOM (Hypertime)In the mini The Kingdom the Hypertime is introduced. Hypertime is a network of alternate timelines that branch off from the DC Universe. These timelines sometimes overlap with each other, causing alterations in reality. Characters can cross from one timeline to another if needed. To be clear, they are not alternate worlds but alternate timelines, which can be born at any time and then merge again with the main timeline. POST INFINITE CRISISThe main DC universe is changed again and a new multiverse is born, but with only 52 new universes. These 52 universes were initially identical to the main one, but thanks to Mr. Mind's tampering they all become different from each other (some of them resemble some of the Pre-Crisis Earths).  AFTER FLASHPOINT/NEW 52
We are the first real reboot after COIE. While in the previous crises after COIE there were more or less marked changes to the DC universe, here almost all the characters start from scratch, differentiating themselves from their pre-New 52 counterparts, even if some events of their past resemble the pre-reboot ones . There is still a multiverse made up of 52 universes. There no JSA in the past of the Prime DC Universe. We will later find out that these changes were caused by Dr. Manhattan!!! (I will continue tomorrow...) When Brainiac gains access to Vanishing Point, he gains the ability to look back into the histories of worlds long deceased, including all of those that were ever erased or rewritten by some kind of Crisis (some even pre-COIE worlds). He collects cities from many of those worlds, and houses them on a planet on the edge of the multiverse, outside The Bleed. ( codystarbuck even a pre-COIE Captain Marvel!) Now the DC universe is an amalgam of the New 52, pre-Flashpoint etc. The post-COIE Superman took over from the post-New 52 Superman (who died heroically in somestory). Thanks to some space-time magic, the two Superman versions have somehow merged even if the pre-New 52 version is the dominant one. Ah, he had a son with Lois Lane during Convergence POST DOOMSDAY CLOCKWe find out that a lot of bad things that happened in the DC Universe post-Flashpoint were caused by Doctor Manhattan because, well, he's an asshole. He found himself in the main DC Universe which, unlike the Watchmen Universe, has a malleable timeline. So he had fun doing experiments, some of the consequences are the disappearance of the JSA, the original Legion, the death of Clark's parents etc etc. Therefore the New 52 is not directly a consequence of Flashpoint but of the Doctor's manipulations. During the story Doctor M. (who, let us remember, comes from an extremely cynical universe) is struck by Superman's altruism and heroism and repairs the damage he has caused and also brings Superboy back into Continuity (Superman as a boy). Additionally, some alternate Earths are created.  soda gifPOST DARK NIGHTS: DEATH METALNow the DC Multiverse is part of the larger Omniverse, where everything happened, Hypertime, Elseworlds, TV series, video games (Injustice) etc etc. Furthermore, new worlds continue to be born.  POST DARK CRISISThe infinite Earths are back in the Dc Multiverse (NOT the Omniverse!) even the ones which were destroyed during COIE, like Earth-D  I hope it's all clear!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 13:13:18 GMT -5
Kamandi is one of the problems that was never adequately reconciled pre-COIE; he was clearly from a future not sharing / occupying the accepted prime DC time which was home to the LOSH, yet he interacted with / exposed his "world" to a present day DC character--namely Batman, as seen in The Brave and the Bold #120 (July, 1975). Kamandi's timeline was not written off as an entirely alternate future, or the result of his coma, but one Batman ended up hoping-- --his present-day world might work to make Kamandi's time a better place. In so many worlds, he established that Kamandi's era is a prime future--just like the LOSH, and that cannot be true, unless one maintained the loose, anything goes type of writing where timelines were concerned. I absolutely agree there was inconsistency, you could even see that in the Legion mythos. In just the 3rd appearance of the Legion in Action #267 where Supergirl joins, the Legion is stated as the sons and daughter of the original members. Of course that's immediately forgotten after that issue. In the case of Kamandi, there's a little more meat on the bone if you will, and that's why I said it's both "canon" and "knowable" per stuff like what you posted. But I would further the argument that you also have to look at "volume" when it comes to a seemingly unreconciled difference like these two future states. The Kamandi series ran from 1972 through 1978, and has just a few interactions here and there with mainstream DC proper: www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/character.php?page=appearances&characterid=872Whereas the Legion started at the beginning of the Silver Age, was squarely founded in the Superman titles and mythos. Look at even the back cover of Superman Annual #6 from 1962:  The Legion was in mostly constant publication in some form throughout the Silver and Bronze Age with minimal disruptions, and from 1973 through 1979 was even co-branded with both Superboy and the Legion on the title of the covers. Here you see the sheer volume of overall appearances in the pre-Crisis DC world: www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/character.php?page=appearances&characterid=305All information of course you are aware of, but my point being, if the exercise at hand to best characterize an era, I think the Legion timeline is overwhelmingly the "traditional future" that was by far the most pervasive continuity that was depicted. The existence of an inconsistency like Kamandi is noteworthy and also appropriately qualifies the era as not "continuity proof" in all cases, but while DC never "officially" called this latter case an example of an alternate timeline (and to your point, really never DID resolve appropriately), I would again argue that Kamandi effectively has this characteristic. I think of it this way...what if mainstream Earth-1 DID evolve into the Kamandi future and not the Legion? It would throw TONS more established continuity into havoc, a lot of things from the past would not make sense anymore. Poor Mon-El!! Trapped for a thousand years and it was all for nothing... |
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Post by zaku on Sept 24, 2023 13:20:41 GMT -5
Let's talk about this one a bit. I would actually say the Legion was the "main timeline" future of Pre-Crisis Earth-1. It was pretty much accepted throughout the Silver and Bronze ages that the many interactions of 20th century characters in the 30th century and vice versa was the "norm". Mon-El would start in present day, and his millenium long Phantom Zone stay would directly culminate in his cure and ability to permanently join the Legion. The Legion would just be "called up" at times, Karate Kid would come back and have an extended stay in present day, etc. I think of Kamandi more as an "alternate" timeline concept...it was still canon, it was "knowable" in that he did interact with the more mainstream DC Universe occasionally, but not "time's straight arrow" if you will. Kamandi is one of the problems that was never adequately reconciled pre-COIE; he was clearly from a future not sharing / occupying the accepted prime DC time which was home to the LOSH, yet he interacted with / exposed his "world" to a present day DC character--namely Batman, as seen in The Brave and the Bold #120 (July, 1975). Kamandi's timeline was not written off as an entirely alternate future, or the result of his coma, but one Batman ended up hoping--
--his present-day world might work to make Kamandi's time a better place. In so many worlds, he established that Kamandi's era is a prime future--just like the LOSH, and that cannot be true, unless one maintained the loose, anything goes type of writing where timelines were concerned.
From Karate Kid 15  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 13:37:56 GMT -5
Kamandi is one of the problems that was never adequately reconciled pre-COIE; he was clearly from a future not sharing / occupying the accepted prime DC time which was home to the LOSH, yet he interacted with / exposed his "world" to a present day DC character--namely Batman, as seen in The Brave and the Bold #120 (July, 1975). Kamandi's timeline was not written off as an entirely alternate future, or the result of his coma, but one Batman ended up hoping--
--his present-day world might work to make Kamandi's time a better place. In so many worlds, he established that Kamandi's era is a prime future--just like the LOSH, and that cannot be true, unless one maintained the loose, anything goes type of writing where timelines were concerned.
From Karate Kid 15 Yeah, this story is of course the callout on an attempt to address both at the same time, I had forgotten they even actually used the term "alternate future" for Kamandi's timeline, but there it is. I did have this story in mind though even with my above comments, I don't think this was a "defining" moment in the fluidity of Earth-1 futures. Again, the Legion future was so firmly entrenched, this story feels more to me like a one-off "the future is in jeopardy". Plus I'm just going to call it here...if there was any "real jeopardy" to the Legion future timeline, the Time Trapper would have had something to say about it. He's calling the timeline shots really  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 13:45:47 GMT -5
Or maybe Kamandi was the real future, and the "pocket universe" Legion ala immediate post-Crisis "Hail Mary writing" could be retro-fitted here...so many ways to play this haha!
Ah, continuity, you can be such a harsh mistress...
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 24, 2023 13:51:10 GMT -5
Kamandi is one of the problems that was never adequately reconciled pre-COIE; he was clearly from a future not sharing / occupying the accepted prime DC time which was home to the LOSH, yet he interacted with / exposed his "world" to a present day DC character--namely Batman, as seen in The Brave and the Bold #120 (July, 1975). Kamandi's timeline was not written off as an entirely alternate future, or the result of his coma, but one Batman ended up hoping--
--his present-day world might work to make Kamandi's time a better place. In so many worlds, he established that Kamandi's era is a prime future--just like the LOSH, and that cannot be true, unless one maintained the loose, anything goes type of writing where timelines were concerned.
From Karate Kid 15 ^ So that was more time shenanigans that contradicted what TBATB #120 established--itself a major inconsistency of the "traditional future" spawned from the Superman-related titles mythos as posted by supercat2099. For so long, DC creators had not a care about inconsistency (yet scratched their heads when Marvel succeeded with readers for attempting consistency, no matter the success/failure rate).
As seen in other IPs known for nonsensical time manipulation plots (the Star Trek franchise, even with the invention of the "Department of Temporal Investigations"), few to none of its writers ever knew what they were doing, and were certainly not establishing nor following some guideline for time travel/manipulation/alternate stories. It was a "make it up as you go" mess that grew with each new story (pre-COIE).
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Post by zaku on Sept 24, 2023 14:14:48 GMT -5
From Karate Kid 15 ^ So that was more time shenanigans that contradicted what TBATB #120 established--itself a major inconsistency of the "traditional future" spawned from the Superman-related titles mythos as posted by supercat2099. For so long, DC creators had not a care about inconsistency (yet scratched their heads when Marvel succeeded with readers for attempting consistency, no matter the success/failure rate).
As seen in other IPs known for nonsensical time manipulation plots (the Star Trek franchise, even with the invention of the "Department of Temporal Investigations"), few to none of its writers ever knew what they were doing, and were certainly not establishing nor following some guideline for time travel/manipulation/alternate stories. It was a "make it up as you go" mess that grew with each new story (pre-COIE).
Well, before Crisis, the nature of the multiverse/alternative futures etc. had never really been explored. They were just narrative devices to tell more or less compelling stories. Indeed, Crisis was the first time that an attempt was made to establish some axioms about the Multiverse (how it was born, the fact that the past could not be changed, etc.) before destroying it, collecting small crumbs left here and there over the decades. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 24, 2023 20:27:42 GMT -5
Let's talk about this one a bit. I would actually say the Legion was the "main timeline" future of Pre-Crisis Earth-1. It was pretty much accepted throughout the Silver and Bronze ages that the many interactions of 20th century characters in the 30th century and vice versa was the "norm". Mon-El would start in present day, and his millenium long Phantom Zone stay would directly culminate in his cure and ability to permanently join the Legion. The Legion would just be "called up" at times, Karate Kid would come back and have an extended stay in present day, etc. I think of Kamandi more as an "alternate" timeline concept...it was still canon, it was "knowable" in that he did interact with the more mainstream DC Universe occasionally, but not "time's straight arrow" if you will. Kamandi is one of the problems that was never adequately reconciled pre-COIE; he was clearly from a future not sharing / occupying the accepted prime DC time which was home to the LOSH, yet he interacted with / exposed his "world" to a present day DC character--namely Batman, as seen in The Brave and the Bold #120 (July, 1975). Kamandi's timeline was not written off as an entirely alternate future, or the result of his coma, but one Batman ended up hoping--
--his present-day world might work to make Kamandi's time a better place. In so many worlds, he established that Kamandi's era is a prime future--just like the LOSH, and that cannot be true, unless one maintained the loose, anything goes type of writing where timelines were concerned. So, allowing for maximum flexibility in story-telling rather than putting a straight-jacket on creators in the name of continuity. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 21:47:07 GMT -5
I can see a little of both sides honestly. On one hand, I’ve never been one to rigidly play “continuity cop”, some of it you just have to go with the flow. I mean, how could Batman be struggling against street level crime in a story in one of his titles, and then turn right around and be solving some cosmic ordeal in a JLA story? Yet somehow they both “feel Batman”. But some level of continuity can also enrich the imaginary world certain characters live in and set up more interesting implications at times.
On the Kamandi thing, I guess you can kind of do the same thing as Batman above, but the title never really felt like “proper DC” to me. Which is fine, it didn’t have to be, but the fact that they tried to selectively make it cross over on a very limited basis…I don’t know, I felt like they could have put some more effort into it to make sense. I never lost sleep over it, but again, I don’t think the Kamandi examples shown here really add much to the overall DC mythos either (just personal opinion of course).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2023 23:15:09 GMT -5
zaku, thanks as well for putting all those summaries together, that does catch me up a bit. I was up to speed until around Convergence, which I mostly bought for some of the retro covers they did, but I could not remember much about the event itself. Interesting in the most recent event there appears to be some semblance of pre-Crisis structure! At least for the early numbered worlds, I couldn't make it through the whole list. I like how they made the Shazam Family world "Earth-5", clever little play on "Earth-S". Though with closer scrutiny, stuff like Earth-2 being "New 52" based if I'm reading that correctly, no thanks! I really didn't mind Zero Hour too much overall for a few reasons. First, despite the original Crisis happening, we weren't yet in full-on endless reboot mode yet. Second, I think there was a much more interesting premise to the actual story itself. While I normally hate to see an old favorite character fall from grace, what led to Hal's downfall had some real weight to it (despite the later explanation that it wasn't really his fault which kind of diluted things). Despite having great nostalgia for my childhood Bronze Age, it felt like they were always needlessly trashing my favorite characters. Poor Barry loses Iris and then Fiona, then gets put on trial, it was so painful to follow. Aquaman stuff was downright hideous with the death of Aquababy, and then the havoc with his marriage to Mera. It just seemed like shock value stuff for the sake of it. And Supergirl dies in Crisis, because...of what again? I don't care about Monitor/Anti-Monitor/Uncle Monitor or any of that nonsense, if they weren't a villain on the Challenge of the Super Friends I could care less. But the Emerald Twilight setup with the destruction of Coast City really carried weight with me. And so if Zero Hour was going to tinker with continuity again, I guess I felt like it had a little better setup. And I like some of the outcomes. Much as Hal was my GL growing up, I really liked the Kyle Rayner version. And a MUCH needed Legion reboot, I could not hang with the 5 years later stuff much as I tried. I just couldn't see "my" Legion anymore, and this new version actually seemed fun again. And had a nice run overall as it developed into the classic "Legion Lost" storyline which I put up there as one of the greatest Legion storylines.
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 24, 2023 23:58:44 GMT -5
On the Kamandi thing, I guess you can kind of do the same thing as Batman above, but the title never really felt like “proper DC” to me. Which is fine, it didn’t have to be, but the fact that they tried to selectively make it cross over on a very limited basis…I don’t know, I felt like they could have put some more effort into it to make sense Making sense was not on the table where DC's pre-COIE clown car attempts at time travel / alternate reality stories were concerned. Despite late 60s DC making major strides to leave the silly crap of the earlier Silver Age behind, they continued the self-inflicted damage with writers (by the time TBATB #120 hit the stands) still not being able to figure out which universe / timeline their characters truly operated in, and just tossed crap at the walls. They seemed to forget readers (and their expectations) had matured in the ten years leading up to TBATB issue, and were not inclined to accept their "anything goes" plotting regarding where and how characters existed. Eventually, some comic writers realized certain actions were necessary (mirroring the complaints of many a reader), which paved the road to COIE, however. |
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Post by zaku on Sept 25, 2023 2:02:36 GMT -5
I believe they addressed the alternate futures thing in this story, but honestly I remember almost nothing of it. Just that Superman loses his costume  |
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