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Post by zaku on Oct 4, 2023 10:53:08 GMT -5
Did anyone read this continuity-shattering event? It seems it singlehandedly destroyed the 90s comics market! From Wikipedia:
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 4, 2023 11:12:48 GMT -5
On the Star Wars - Star Trek crossover...
Luke : "I got a bad feeling about this".
Han : "I got a bad feeling about this".
C-3PO : "I got a bad feeling about this".
Obi-Wan Kenobi : "I got a bad feeling about this".
Spock : "I do not".
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Post by MDG on Oct 4, 2023 11:19:26 GMT -5
Did anyone read this continuity-shattering event? It seems it singlehandedly destroyed the 90s comics market! From Wikipedia: I don't know about that, unless so many stores spent so much money overordering a book that never got mentioned again.
There was also Total Eclipse, put out by Eclipse where they offered a money-back guarantee--if you didn't like the book, the shop would take it back and, I assume, send it back to Eclipse for credit. I think a lot of folks took them up on that, since a year later, I went to several bigger shows (like mid-ohio con) and there were stacks of it for the taking.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 4, 2023 11:27:39 GMT -5
Did anyone read this continuity-shattering event? It seems it singlehandedly destroyed the 90s comics market! From Wikipedia: Usual hyperbole that misses the point. Deathmate didn't kill the market; it was dying rapidly. Deathmate was just a more notable example of what was going wrong within the industry. Did I read it? Yeah, sort of, as much as you could, because the Image side of things was pretty incoherent and the Valiant side wasn't all that, either. It was just a bloated mess that fell apart because the Image side, specifically Rob Liefeld, couldn't get the work done in a timely manner. Bob Layton has stated that he had to close Liefedl up in a hotel room and make him finish pages, so he could ink them and get the book out. The 90s fallout was not down to Deathmate; but, it represented one of the biggest issues, at the retailer level, speculative buying. It was bad enough that deluded consumers were buying up "collectibles," expecting fast turn-over for a profit and send their kids through college. It didn't happen. When the comic normally sells about 200,000 copies and you sell a million or more, how scarce is that comic? How many people who desire it do not have it in their greedy little hands? The answer is that everyone had it, often in multiples that they thought they were going to sell off and make a fortune. Until they actually tried to sell it. The bigger problem is that retailers were doing this and buying case lots of titles like this and then found themselves stuck with massive inventory. The publishers were feeding this mentality, with gimmicks, variants, a new first issue every week and similar silliness. So, te retailers ended up with all of their cash tied up in excess inventory that nobody else wanted, because they got their copies or didn't give a flying @#$% about the latest X-title or derivative comic book from one of the Image guys. Deathmate is kind of where this lack of business sense caught up with a lot of retailers, as Deathmate, being an Image and Valiant crossover, was a highly touted project. It got tons of press and speculators were salivating. Image and Valiant were hot commodities, because they were launching a lot of new titles (more image) and back issues (for Valiant) went for high prices, due to legitimate scarcity (early Valiant print runs were fairly modest, until Unity, their big crossover event). So, retailers went nuts ordering the issues for this, which had color designations, rather than issue numbers (as if 0 issues or counting backwards weren't dumb enough gimmicks). Then, Image, true to form, couldn't hold up their end of things and get their portions out on time. By that point, speculators were cooling on the book, as the general fan and critical consensus was that it was a fairly mediocre story (what there was of one) and by the time the next installment came out, you had forgotten what happened before. By the time the end came, no one cared and abandoned it and retailers were sunk, as they had back rooms full of unopened cases and no buyers. Speculative buying hurt the industry; but what nearly killed it was Marvel trying to self-distribute, without the infrastructure to support it, and with rather questionable terms that encouraged buying excessive inventory to get better discounts. The fallout of the speculators, which fell within the timeframe of the end of Deathmate hurt the industry; but, Marvel's fiasco drove far more retailers out of business, as they started dropping like flies. You need to have liquid cash to run a business and purchase new inventory. However, every unsold comic on your current inventory is a detriment to profit. By not selling those comics, you are increasing your costs of doing business and you have to sell that much more to earn a profit. Comic books, being driven by what is new, meant that you had to keep buying more and more new stuff and sell it quickly or you lost more and more liquid cash, until you reached a tipping point and had no money to buy new and couldn't sell the old. Deathmate was just a milestone on the path to self-destruction among retailers; it was not a cause.
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Post by MWGallaher on Oct 5, 2023 17:49:17 GMT -5
I didn't read Deathmate, but I couldn't decide whether it was an inspired concept or utterly misguided one, since at the time, Image and Valiant had completely opposite approaches to the medium.
At Image, it was all about "cool" art. Writing and storytelling were not as important as the dazzle. Full page splashes, pin-up style drawings, hectic imagery, if the reader got a thrill from the exaggerated art, it didn't matter if they couldn't make sense of the story.
At Valiant, Jim Shooter's policies dictated clarity in storytelling over everything else. Simple compositions, straight-on, medium-distance panels, tamping down on the pizzazz if it threatened to obfuscate the plot. Heck, I once read a Valiant comic and didn't realize until I got to their idiosyncratic last-page credits that it had been drawn by Steve Ditko, that's how much Shooter's vision suppressed artistic style!
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 5, 2023 18:04:55 GMT -5
Know what really bothers me? This: Five issues were published. And not one of them - NOT ONE - matches up with WWF continuity at the time, as seen on the likes of the USA Network and in syndication. Clearly, wrestling needs its own continuity correction (Crisis in Infinite Wrestling Rings?). Seriously, I loved the issues.
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Post by Calidore on Oct 5, 2023 18:20:44 GMT -5
Five issues were published. And not one of them - NOT ONE - matches up with WWF continuity at the time, as seen on the likes of the USA Network and in syndication. Clearly, wrestling needs its own continuity correction (Crisis in Infinite Wrestling Rings?).
How about Crisis in Infinite Territories, wherein a monstrous being annihilates the wrestling territories and feeds on the remnants to increase his own strength.
Hey, waitaminnit....
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 5, 2023 18:26:09 GMT -5
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 5, 2023 21:30:21 GMT -5
Five issues were published. And not one of them - NOT ONE - matches up with WWF continuity at the time, as seen on the likes of the USA Network and in syndication. Clearly, wrestling needs its own continuity correction (Crisis in Infinite Wrestling Rings?).
How about Crisis in Infinite Territories, wherein a monstrous being annihilates the wrestling territories and feeds on the remnants to increase his own strength.
Hey, waitaminnit....
Well, if Vince is the Anti-Monitor, does that make Crockett the Monitor or the Beyonder? He was gobbling up promotions, too. Verne Gagne would be The Pariah, since he ended up being poached by all sides. Memphis was kind of like New Genesis and Apokalips, shielded, sort of, from the conflict. Puerto Rico could be Earth 4, with the Charlton wrestlers.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 5, 2023 21:34:29 GMT -5
Know what really bothers me? This: Five issues were published. And not one of them - NOT ONE - matches up with WWF continuity at the time, as seen on the likes of the USA Network and in syndication. Clearly, wrestling needs its own continuity correction (Crisis in Infinite Wrestling Rings?). Seriously, I loved the issues. At best, they had maybe a two month lead time on publication, which would make it hard to coordinate storylines, without the WWF let them in on the booking plans. As it was, Vince just wanted their name out there and Shooter was just trying to get licensed products with name recognition, since his backers weren't ready to try something more daring, until the licensed stuff did nothing. As it was, Vince reneged on promises that the comic would be sold at wrestling shows, as they were rarely seen outside of newsstands and few of those. The Nintendo books did better, but not huge numbers. It didn't help that the WWF was at a creative low point and Shooter was just trying to bring himself work.
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Post by Calidore on Oct 7, 2023 16:33:33 GMT -5
How about Crisis in Infinite Territories, wherein a monstrous being annihilates the wrestling territories and feeds on the remnants to increase his own strength.
Hey, waitaminnit....
Well, if Vince is the Anti-Monitor, does that make Crockett the Monitor or the Beyonder? He was gobbling up promotions, too. Verne Gagne would be The Pariah, since he ended up being poached by all sides. Memphis was kind of like New Genesis and Apokalips, shielded, sort of, from the conflict. Puerto Rico could be Earth 4, with the Charlton wrestlers.
The Monitor was kind of a good guy, right? (Been a very long time since I read Crisis.) I don't think that exists in pro wrestling leadership. I'm not sure what an analogue for Crockett would be. There's also Fritz and Bill Watts. I suppose you'd have to throw in Dixie Carter somewhere also.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 7, 2023 17:35:56 GMT -5
Well, if Vince is the Anti-Monitor, does that make Crockett the Monitor or the Beyonder? He was gobbling up promotions, too. Verne Gagne would be The Pariah, since he ended up being poached by all sides. Memphis was kind of like New Genesis and Apokalips, shielded, sort of, from the conflict. Puerto Rico could be Earth 4, with the Charlton wrestlers.
The Monitor was kind of a good guy, right? (Been a very long time since I read Crisis.) I don't think that exists in pro wrestling leadership. I'm not sure what an analogue for Crockett would be. There's also Fritz and Bill Watts. I suppose you'd have to throw in Dixie Carter somewhere also.
If ever there was a Harbinger of Doom, it was Dixie Carter!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 18:59:41 GMT -5
I was digging through a box of back issues and saw my issues of the G.I. Joe and the Transformers mini-series that kicked off in late '86. And it suddenly occured to me, if Spider-Man appeared in Transformers #3 from late '84, and the Transformers later appeared with G.I. Joe per my prior statement, then...did G.I. Joe occupy regular Marvel continuity at that point (on a technicality at the very least)??
It of course makes no sense, Iron Man or Thor could clean up a COBRA attack in no time and that would be the end of that. But still...my inquiring mind became curious.
Google was my friend, it has been discussed elsewhere before, and it looks like Marvel later sort of backtracked on the Spider-Man thing. In the letters column of Transformers #64, they explicity state that regular Marvel and Transformers are different universes. They address the Spider-Man thing by briefly saying "Can we just forget about that one? Please."
The lesson again being, you don't need a continuity-shattering event to change things. A tiny pinch of editorial pixie dust can make ANYTHING go away!
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 8, 2023 13:07:25 GMT -5
I was digging through a box of back issues and saw my issues of the G.I. Joe and the Transformers mini-series that kicked off in late '86. And it suddenly occured to me, if Spider-Man appeared in Transformers #3 from late '84, and the Transformers later appeared with G.I. Joe per my prior statement, then...did G.I. Joe occupy regular Marvel continuity at that point (on a technicality at the very least)?? It of course makes no sense, Iron Man or Thor could clean up a COBRA attack in no time and that would be the end of that. But still...my inquiring mind became curious. Google was my friend, it has been discussed elsewhere before, and it looks like Marvel later sort of backtracked on the Spider-Man thing. In the letters column of Transformers #64, they explicity state that regular Marvel and Transformers are different universes. They address the Spider-Man thing by briefly saying "Can we just forget about that one? Please." The lesson again being, you don't need a continuity-shattering event to change things. A tiny pinch of editorial pixie dust can make ANYTHING go away! The same thing is true of pro wrestling fans. Superstar Billy Graham built a career out of being a bodybuilder with a carnival barker ability to talk nonsense, Daddy, and made people want to see him, then need an opponent to carry him in the ring. He was then made champion, because he sold truckloads of tickets; but, because their model was a hero champion facing monster and evil opponents, he was told the exact date he would lose the title, which was more than the few days or weeks of past heel champions. He is hugely popular, even as a heel and they don't do the sensible thing of turning him babyface, because they are committed to that end date, to transition to the All-American babyface Bob Backlund. Graham gets depressed and changes his look, wearing karate pants instead of tie-dye tights, wild sunglasses and earrings, which was a look and style swiped by others, like Jesse Ventura and Hulk Hogan. he shaves his head (he was balding long before; but, let what was there grow long) and starts doing a martial arts gimmick and won't do the old Superstar, confusing fans. he leaves the area and does the karate bit elsewhere, but then switches back to the old Superstar in another promotion, before coming back to the WWF, thereby confusing those who first saw him in the karate gimmick. Similarly, there was an African-American wrestler, Pez Whatley (his given name was Pezavan, it had nothing to do with the candy dispenser company), known as Pistol Pez Whatley, who had been a collegiate amateur wrestler and wrestled in several southern territories and prominently on cable tv, for Jim Crockett Promotions, on TBS. He then was working in the Alabama promotion, the Continental Wrestling Federation (it was one continent, and a very small area of said continent), under the name Willy B Hurt, but all of the fans knew he was Pez Whatley, because they had seen him there before, as Pez Whatley and saw him in national tv, as Pez Whatley. The announcers even acknowledged it, but he just cut these promos about "just trying to be me." It was weird, but he got over with the fans and they kept calling him Willy B, even though the fans would chant Pez during his matches. He moved on and became Pez Whatley again, like Willy B Hurt was a split personality, or something. The WWF like to repackage wrestlers as something new and couldn't understand why they didn't get over, when fans kept cheering their old name. Mick Foley was made Mankind, a monster heel, when he came in; but, tons of people had seen him regionally or nationally as Cactus Jack. They would cheer Cactus at him, during matches. To get him over more, they did a sit down interview, where they worked in a lof of Mick Foley's actual childhood, but exaggerated it to give this idea of a mentally warped individual. One of those things was showing a tape he made as a teenager, portraying a wrestler, called Dude Love, based on guys like Billy Graham and Jimmy Valiant. The fans responded well to the segments and the video they showed and they hit on the idea of having Foley come to the ring as Dude Love, believing he was Dude Love, like a split personality. It got over. They then decided to have him come out as Cactus Jack, though there were people involved who knew nothing about wrestling outside of their WWF jobs who thought no one ever heard of Cactus Jack, before Mick foley came to the WWF, since it was the Big Time. Others knew better and he came out, in front of a Madison Square Garden crowd, as Cactus Jack, to a massive response, because the crowds had seen him on WCW national tv as Cactus Jack and ECW tv, as Cactus Jack. They even did a video of him morphing from one to the other, to lead into the entrance to the ring. Steve Austin started in the WWF as The Ringmaster and crowds were indifferent. he shaves his head, starts talking like an exaggerated version of himself and throws in catch phrases and suddenly the crowds forgot he had ever been the Ringmaster. Conversely, Randy Colley had wrestled there as part of the Moondogs team, dressed like a hillbilly and gnawing on a big bone, then was put together with Bill Eadie, the formerly masked wrestler The Masked Superstar, as a Road Warrior clone team, Demolition. Most didn't know what Eadie looked like, under his mask, so the face paint didn't matter; but, as soon as he spoke they recognized him. With Colley, as soon as they came out, people were chanting Moondog at him and they ended up quickly replacing him with Barry Darsow, who was less familiar to the crowds in the WWF (though a certain percentage knew him as Krusher Kruschev, on the Crockett program, on TBS, and he had to hide a distinctive tattoo, with an elbow pad, pulled over his bicep). Much like comics, the announcers basically told the fans the past didn't count, which used to be the basis for editors doing soft reboots. That was then, this is now.
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 8, 2023 13:21:36 GMT -5
I was digging through a box of back issues and saw my issues of the G.I. Joe and the Transformers mini-series that kicked off in late '86. And it suddenly occured to me, if Spider-Man appeared in Transformers #3 from late '84, and the Transformers later appeared with G.I. Joe per my prior statement, then...did G.I. Joe occupy regular Marvel continuity at that point (on a technicality at the very least)?? It of course makes no sense, Iron Man or Thor could clean up a COBRA attack in no time and that would be the end of that. But still...my inquiring mind became curious. Google was my friend, it has been discussed elsewhere before, and it looks like Marvel later sort of backtracked on the Spider-Man thing. In the letters column of Transformers #64, they explicity state that regular Marvel and Transformers are different universes. They address the Spider-Man thing by briefly saying "Can we just forget about that one? Please." The lesson again being, you don't need a continuity-shattering event to change things. A tiny pinch of editorial pixie dust can make ANYTHING go away! Gotta be honest, as a kid, it was hard for me to accept Transformers and G.I. Joe existing in the same universe as the superheroes. I mean, just where were Cap, Iron Man, Thor and others when the Autobots and Decepticons were fighting? I know we shouldn’t think about such things. I often did not. When Riddler had Batman in a death trap, I never wondered where Superman or Hawkman were. They had their own problems. If one put a nanosecond of thought into it, and who did, perhaps they were off-planet. Or busy. However, at times, I thought about it when an earth-shattering event (or something like it) occurred. When Bane engineered a breakout of Arkham Asylum, I did wonder where exactly others were. I know we aren’t supposed to think too hard, but are you telling me that Flash, Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Hawkman, to mention a few, didn’t hear about that? Was there really no-one who could have lent a hand for 2 hours? Not even an hour? I believe that was the first time I thought about it deeply (Superman was dead at the time, right?). It made me wonder how believable it was for Batman and super-powered heroes could conceivably exist in the same universe. I know there’s the jurisdiction argument. I mean, should New Yorkers necessarily expect state troopers to show up in Times Square? Sure, the New York State Police has jurisdiction over all of New York City, but one might not expect them to necessarily show up where NYPD has it covered. So why should I expect Flash or Hawkman to help Batman out? I get that, but it still felt odd. I had similar thoughts when Green Goblin was tearing up New York. I’m talking one of his more maniacal moments. Are you really telling me no other New York hero was available when Spidey was barely surviving? Were the X-Men, Defenders, Avengers and others really all occupied? We aren’t supposed to think too deeply, right. But us comic fans are a cowardly and superstitious lot…I mean, we’re a pedantic lot. Why wouldn’t it cross my mind? So I was sort of there with Transformers. The Spidey appearance was fun, it really was. But then it places them in the same universe as G.I. Joe. And while G.I. Joe often had only pyrrhic victories against Cobra, I am sure between them, the Avengers and Fantastic Four could have shut down Cobra in an afternoon. It’s even crossed my minds with the MCU. Why didn’t Nick Fury call on Doctor Strange during Secret Invasion? Could not Shang-Chi and Black Widow have not sought Strange’s help during their movies? Bit hard to justify a mission or task, one which often involves no guarantee of success, when a Sorcerer Supreme could probably help you get the job done in half the time.
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