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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 8, 2023 13:29:48 GMT -5
I was digging through a box of back issues and saw my issues of the G.I. Joe and the Transformers mini-series that kicked off in late '86. And it suddenly occured to me, if Spider-Man appeared in Transformers #3 from late '84, and the Transformers later appeared with G.I. Joe per my prior statement, then...did G.I. Joe occupy regular Marvel continuity at that point (on a technicality at the very least)?? It of course makes no sense, Iron Man or Thor could clean up a COBRA attack in no time and that would be the end of that. But still...my inquiring mind became curious. Google was my friend, it has been discussed elsewhere before, and it looks like Marvel later sort of backtracked on the Spider-Man thing. In the letters column of Transformers #64, they explicity state that regular Marvel and Transformers are different universes. They address the Spider-Man thing by briefly saying "Can we just forget about that one? Please." The lesson again being, you don't need a continuity-shattering event to change things. A tiny pinch of editorial pixie dust can make ANYTHING go away! Gotta be honest, as a kid, it was hard for me to accept Transformers and G.I. Joe existing in the same universe as the superheroes. I mean, just where were Cap, Iron Man, Thor and others when the Autobots and Decepticons were fighting? I know we shouldn’t think about such things. I often did not. When Riddler had Batman in a death trap, I never wondered where Superman or Hawkman were. They had their own problems. If one put a nanosecond of thought into it, and who did, perhaps they were off-planet. Or busy. However, at times, I thought about it when an earth-shattering event (or something like it) occurred. When Bane engineered a breakout of Arkham Asylum, I did wonder where exactly others were. I know we aren’t supposed to think too hard, but are you telling me that Flash, Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Hawkman, to mention a few, didn’t hear about that? Was there really no-one who could have lent a hand for 2 hours? Not even an hour? I believe that was the first time I thought about it deeply (Superman was dead at the time, right?). It made me wonder how believable it was for Batman and super-powered heroes could conceivably exist in the same universe. I know there’s the jurisdiction argument. I mean, should New Yorkers necessarily expect state troopers to show up in Times Square? Sure, the New York State Police has jurisdiction over all of New York City, but one might not expect them to necessarily show up where NYPD has it covered. So why should I expect Flash or Hawkman to help Batman out? I get that, but it still felt odd. I had similar thoughts when Green Goblin was tearing up New York. I’m talking one of his more maniacal moments. Are you really telling me no other New York hero was available when Spidey was barely surviving? Were the X-Men, Defenders, Avengers and others really all occupied? We aren’t supposed to think too deeply, right. But us comic fans are a cowardly and superstitious lot…I mean, we’re a pedantic lot. Why wouldn’t it cross my mind? So I was sort of there with Transformers. The Spidey appearance was fun, it really was. But then it places them in the same universe as G.I. Joe. And while G.I. Joe often had only pyrrhic victories against Cobra, I am sure between them, the Avengers and Fantastic Four could have shut down Cobra in an afternoon. It’s even crossed my minds with the MCU. Why didn’t Nick Fury call on Doctor Strange during Secret Invasion? Could not Shang-Chi and Black Widow have not sought Strange’s help during their movies? Bit hard to justify a mission or task, one which often involves no guarantee of success, when a Sorcerer Supreme could probably help you get the job done in half the time. The Punisher could have shut down Cobra, by himself. He could actually hit what he was shooting at, unlike GI JOE, though he was as about as realistic a Marine as Gung Ho was. |
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Post by MWGallaher on Oct 9, 2023 18:58:23 GMT -5
Gotta be honest, as a kid, it was hard for me to accept Transformers and G.I. Joe existing in the same universe as the superheroes. I mean, just where were Cap, Iron Man, Thor and others when the Autobots and Decepticons were fighting? I know we shouldn’t think about such things. I often did not. When Riddler had Batman in a death trap, I never wondered where Superman or Hawkman were. They had their own problems. If one put a nanosecond of thought into it, and who did, perhaps they were off-planet. Or busy. However, at times, I thought about it when an earth-shattering event (or something like it) occurred. When Bane engineered a breakout of Arkham Asylum, I did wonder where exactly others were. I know we aren’t supposed to think too hard, but are you telling me that Flash, Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Hawkman, to mention a few, didn’t hear about that? Was there really no-one who could have lent a hand for 2 hours? Not even an hour? I believe that was the first time I thought about it deeply (Superman was dead at the time, right?). It made me wonder how believable it was for Batman and super-powered heroes could conceivably exist in the same universe. I remember fans complaining about the No Man's Land storyline in the Batman books, where an earthquake destroyed Gotham: why aren't Superman, Zatanna, Green Lantern, et al. helping to rebuild it? I don't think the writers ever gave a really convincing explanation, but as far as I was concerned, it's pretty easy to argue that superhero intervention wouldn't have been inadvisable. Post-Crisis Superman wouldn't have had the appropriate expertise to rebuild a skyscraper, install an appropriate electrical system, plumbing, etc. And super-speed means nothing to concrete's cure time! Maybe he could use some New Genesis-level tech to build an entirely new city, but then you have the headache of deciding who gets what: do you create high-tech but modest efficiency apartments for the poor but provide better accommodations for the rich, or for big businesses? Green Lantern could have been helpful, but even recruiting a large group of Corps members--which would probably violate the Guardians' policy--they could only focus on helping a relatively few rebuilding efforts at a time. But why not let Zatanna just say "tliuber eb mahtog"? Well, how do we know that every one of Zatanna's spells won't immediately undo itself when she dies? Is Batman going to trust the magic experts' word on that, even if they tell him otherwise? |
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 9, 2023 19:18:20 GMT -5
Gotta be honest, as a kid, it was hard for me to accept Transformers and G.I. Joe existing in the same universe as the superheroes. I mean, just where were Cap, Iron Man, Thor and others when the Autobots and Decepticons were fighting? The same place most superheroes were during major wars: not using their considerable powers to end wars over a weekend. Having posted that, there are ways of addressing / incorporating superheroes into real world conflicts, which usually requires the heroes to be drawn into more fantasy-based, adjacent threats too dangerous / big for regular armies to fight. In the case of the Autobots and Decepticons, yeah, any number of top-shelf superheroes would turn those characters into junk, surplus parts in 22 minutes (80s cartoon running time). |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 19:42:35 GMT -5
Gotta be honest, as a kid, it was hard for me to accept Transformers and G.I. Joe existing in the same universe as the superheroes. I mean, just where were Cap, Iron Man, Thor and others when the Autobots and Decepticons were fighting? The same place most superheroes were during major wars: not using their considerable powers to end wars over a weekend. Having posted that, there are ways of addressing / incorporating superheroes into real world conflicts, which usually requires the heroes to be drawn into more fantasy-based, adjacent threats too dangerous / big for regular armies to fight. In the case of the Autobots and Decepticons, yeah, any number of top-shelf superheroes would turn those characters into junk, surplus parts in 22 minutes (80s cartoon running time). Until Unicron shows up. |
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Post by rberman on Oct 10, 2023 11:47:57 GMT -5
This is why it was good for Marvel to let ROM's war with the Dire Wraiths climax with an "all heroes in" story that spilled over into lots of other books. Marvel is finally releasing ROM and Micronauts in Omnibus next year; I'm looking forward to having those.
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Post by The Cheat on Oct 10, 2023 12:48:40 GMT -5
I remember fans complaining about the No Man's Land storyline in the Batman books, where an earthquake destroyed Gotham: why aren't Superman, Zatanna, Green Lantern, et al. helping to rebuild it? Been a while, but fairly sure there was an entire issue about Superman offering help and Bruce turning him away for... reasons. |
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 10, 2023 13:39:33 GMT -5
Yes, it was this issue:  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2023 9:06:40 GMT -5
I'm reading some late 90's Marvel "MC2" stuff (15 years in the future possible alt timeline) with the Fantastic Five, Spider-Girl, etc. It made me reflect why something like this appealed to me more than the ginormous Marvel multiverse today with its rather silly numbering system.
I think it comes down to why I like the pre-Crisis DC approach so much more. Sometimes a little bit of a good thing goes a long way. Earth-1 for what was happening then but Earth-2 for the beloved Golden Age world and as a construct for both of them to be able to interact? Awesome, their annual team-ups were always a treat as well. Earth-3 as a twist? Brilliant and fun. Make room for the Captain Marvel Family with Earth-S? Makes sense (same with the Quality comics world). But not much more than this, these all had something special about them and work standalone. Creating too many iterations just dilutes everything overall. And blowing them away like Crisis did ruined the fun as well.
So Marvel having a "regular" continuity, an MC2 playspace, the Ultimates world, even the world of 2099...just enough variety to have some creative fun with. Today, I feel like too many worlds and none seem all that special to me.
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 15, 2023 10:40:06 GMT -5
I concur, @supercat2099.
And it’s so easy to keep track of. MC2 is what it is, Ultimate Universe is what it is, 2099 is what it is, etc.
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 19, 2023 12:07:12 GMT -5
I thought it wise to put this here:
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 19, 2023 12:57:39 GMT -5
I thought it wise to put this here:  |
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 19, 2023 13:10:04 GMT -5
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Post by jason on Oct 19, 2023 15:16:22 GMT -5
I'd buy them if they were the same price as they were in 1984  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2023 17:25:01 GMT -5
That Zeck Secret Wars cover is so killer. I also still remember seeing ASM #252 on the newsstand, blew my mind seeing Spider-Man in a new costume. Actually, reading that started my quest to find a shop that sold Secret Wars since my newsstand didn't have it. And in the process I discovered my first comic book shop.
I then remember the glory of seeing all the new issues at the shop, but by that point they had out Secret Wars #5 and #6. I was like "oh no, I missed the first 4 issues!" Guy at the counter tells me "check the back issues in the next room".
Next room? Back issues? My mind was blown (again). In addition to all the long boxes to make my way through, they had this little locked glass display case back there with the high dollar stuff. I don't recall the exact comic, but I distinctly remember seeing my first Golden Age comic in person (it was something Batman related).
Yeah, Secret Wars was kind of a toy ad, went too long, and had some not great outcomes like Ben Grimm staying. But it was fun enough for me, and I did buy a lot of the toys (I think I put the Tower of Doom next to my Navarone mountain playset).
We also got Julia Carpenter Spider-Woman and Titania out of the series who I think are pretty cool. And that initial symbiote storyline back in Spider-Man was a pretty fun read (we hadn't been inundated by endless symbiotes yet). I also like how they played it that the Beyonder did not consider Magneto a villain (foreshadowing of him later taking Xavier's place to lead the New Mutants?).
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,199 
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Post by Confessor on Oct 19, 2023 18:28:39 GMT -5
The thing with Secret Wars is that, inevitably, the age you were when it came out is almost certainly going to influence your opinion of it. I was 11 years old and I thought it was an amazing comic series -- precisely because I was 11 years old. The whole concept, simplistic though it was, was exactly the sort of "good guys vs bad guys" battle royal I would enact with action figures with my school friends. It was just big, dumb superhero fun and at purely being that it succeeded brilliantly.
Now, if you were an older fan who was in their late teens or 20s and 30s when it came out, chances are you probably thought it was a load of rubbish, but then it wasn't really aimed at your age group. And let's be honest, Secret Wars really had very little to offer outside of "hey, look...it's Spider-Man, Captain America, the FF etc kicking the c**p out of Doctor Octopus, Enchantress, Doctor Doom etc -- cooool!!"
These days I can absolutely see the shortcomings the mini-series had, but if I re-read it as an adult I can still enjoy it for what it is -- big, dumb superhero fun. Though I also acknowledge that such an opinion is one hundred percent soaked in rose-tinted nostalgia.
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