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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 8, 2024 21:52:48 GMT -5
Interesting that people don't know Brad Meltzer.. he was the first of DC's attempts to get popular authors to write comics.. He wrote several best sellers before doing anything with DC...most of them are DaVinci Code-like Thrillers with weird historical conspiracies thrown in. He also wrote a bunch of little kid history books that are much better than Identity Crisis. I think most often when I get ticked off at a writer its more for them moving on from a book a like, but I know that is mostly very silly. Jodi Picoult's one attempt didn't seem to wow anyone, as I recall. Marvel ticked off YA fantasy author Tamora Pierce, when she wrote a White Tiger mini-series, with a new female version, by the artist drawing a panel of a male villain straddling the character in a way that Pierce felt implied rape and that wasn't in her plot/script. When she raised objections to the editor, he blew it off and sided with the artist. She was supposed to do more work, but refuse to work with them again. She told me about that experience at a book signing, at our local library, when I was there to sell books, for the library (they hosted the signing, but contacted B&N to have books available, in case anyone wanted to get one signed but didn't own a copy). She was a huge fan of Don McGregor's writing and also of the characters Misty Knight and Colleen Wing. Marvel blew their chance to have her write something for those two. They did end up adapting Laurel K Hamilton's Anita Blake books, but she is an odd duck (though her readers are even weirder, as she had to have private security at her signings, because of some of the real wingnuts). |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 8, 2024 22:43:32 GMT -5
I guess our respective understandings of Barbara Gordon are completely different. I’m trying to think of any other time she did something that stupid and careless. Well, I'm sure you're better read than I when it comes to Batgirl, but I guess my point was that there were mitigating circumstances. Its not like she just answered the door without thinking; she was expecting somebody else to knock at that time, and she was distracted anyway. It was a lapse of judgement or caution that had tragic results. Alan Moore couldn’t think of any way to move the story along except for having Barbara Gordon open the door without thinking. A very lazy contrivance. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 8, 2024 22:45:47 GMT -5
Identity Crisis was “a love letter to the Silver Age” for people who don’t know what a love letter is or when the Silver Age was. I don't know about "love letter to the Silver Age;" the majority of the stories he used for flashbacks were actually Bronze Age JLA stories....ones I had actually read, at the time, thanks to a friend who picked up the JLA semi regularly, for a little bit. It’s not my phrase. I can’t remember if Metzler said it in an interview or if it was just some promotional gibberish for Identity Crisis. |
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Post by Batflunkie on Nov 8, 2024 23:01:57 GMT -5
I really loved the Levitz/Giffen Legion run as a kid in the 80's, and when Levitz returned to the Legion with the New 52, I had some hope he might still have some Legion magic left in him. Oh my I was wrong. I don't even know what he was thinking with Shadow Lass leaving Mon-El in the most nonsensical storyline, and it didn't get better from there. Sometimes you can't go back home I guess. I kind of blame Levitz for portraying Aquaman exactly how he was in Super-Friends, a dude who can only talk to fish, and that seriously annoyed me when reading his tenure on the book |
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Post by supercat on Nov 8, 2024 23:12:38 GMT -5
I really loved the Levitz/Giffen Legion run as a kid in the 80's, and when Levitz returned to the Legion with the New 52, I had some hope he might still have some Legion magic left in him. Oh my I was wrong. I don't even know what he was thinking with Shadow Lass leaving Mon-El in the most nonsensical storyline, and it didn't get better from there. Sometimes you can't go back home I guess. I kind of blame Levitz for portraying Aquaman exactly how he was in Super-Friends, a dude who can only talk to fish, and that seriously annoyed me when reading his tenure on the book Yeah, same, I’m not really a fan of Levitz with Aquaman. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 9, 2024 1:08:57 GMT -5
I'd been a big fan of Marc DeMatteis's work for Marvel in the '80s and was eagerly awaiting his Moonshadow series. What a disappointment. Turgid overwriting, unpleasant characters, and an "ending" that was anything but (gorgeous art, though). The fact that I don't even have an electronic copy of the series should speak volumes.
Cei-U!
I summon the waste of time, momey, and paper!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 9, 2024 1:30:38 GMT -5
I'd been a big fan of Marc DeMatteis's work for Marvel in the '80s and was eagerly awaiting his Moonshadow series. What a disappointment. Turgid overwriting, unpleasant characters, and an "ending" that was anything but (gorgeous art, though). The fact that I don't even have an electronic copy of the series should speak volumes. Cei-U! I summon the waste of time, momey, and paper! Finally. The other person who hates that book as much as I do. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 9, 2024 2:03:50 GMT -5
I'd been a big fan of Marc DeMatteis's work for Marvel in the '80s and was eagerly awaiting his Moonshadow series. What a disappointment. Turgid overwriting, unpleasant characters, and an "ending" that was anything but (gorgeous art, though). The fact that I don't even have an electronic copy of the series should speak volumes. Cei-U! I summon the waste of time, momey, and paper! Finally. The other person who hates that book as much as I do. Never read it, but the bulk of the praise I heard for it, through the decades, was for Jon J Muth's art. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,174 
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Post by Confessor on Nov 9, 2024 4:45:45 GMT -5
Well, I'm sure you're better read than I when it comes to Batgirl, but I guess my point was that there were mitigating circumstances. Its not like she just answered the door without thinking; she was expecting somebody else to knock at that time, and she was distracted anyway. It was a lapse of judgement or caution that had tragic results. Alan Moore couldn’t think of any way to move the story along except for having Barbara Gordon open the door without thinking. A very lazy contrivance. It's not lazy because he provides a rationale for her doing it. That's kinda how fiction writing works. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 9, 2024 11:28:37 GMT -5
Alan Moore couldn’t think of any way to move the story along except for having Barbara Gordon open the door without thinking. A very lazy contrivance. It's not lazy because he provides a rationale for her doing it. That's kinda how fiction writing works. It’s pretty lazy. It’s not good fiction writing to lazily mischaracterize someone. As someone who knows the character pretty well, I know that Barbara Gordon is not stupid. And what she does here is really stupid and careless, and completely out of character based on every single panel she’s ever appeared in. It’s completely out of character for anyone who lives in Gotham City, whether or not they are Batgirl or James Gordon’s daughter. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,174
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Post by Confessor on Nov 9, 2024 11:33:39 GMT -5
It's not lazy because he provides a rationale for her doing it. That's kinda how fiction writing works. It’s pretty lazy. It’s not good fiction writing to lazily mischaracterize someone. As someone who knows the character pretty well, I know that Barbara Gordon is not stupid. And what she does here is really stupid and careless, and completely out of character based on every single panel she’s ever appeared in. It’s completely out of character for anyone who lives in Gotham City, whether or not they are Batgirl or James Gordon’s daughter. Careless, yes, stupid no. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 10, 2024 19:00:12 GMT -5
Well, hardly a favorite writer; but, Brad Meltzer ticked me right the hell off. Brad Meltzer... ah yes. I remember his "love letter to the Silver Age" with Identity Crisis. Funny, I don't remember forced rape a part of the Silver Age. It was a total middle finger to what the Justice League was and were with piss poor writing. Geoff Johns gave me an answer that still haunts me to this day about Infinite Crisis. Another editorial mandate to make things even darker before a reboot, the first issue of this mini-series starts off with the brutal murder of The Freedom Fighters. It's brutal; impaling, decapitations. Seriously a WTF moment and not talked about. Freedom Fighters are a favorite team of mine. When I asked him about this, he said 'I did it because I could. Who cares about that team?' When I told him that I was, he looked me dumbfounded. He shouldn’t have answered you that way but he was right. The Freedom Fighters could never sustain a series. The way DC has rebooted their characters , it doesn’t matter. They are all alive now. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 10, 2024 19:21:03 GMT -5
I really enjoyed Identity Crisis and the Killing Joke. The acceptance of these stories always depends on your attachment to the main characters. I was mainly a Marvel fan. It didn't faze me when Barbara got assaulted. The plot device that she opened the door the way she did is part of the tragedy of the story. For a fan that was connected to these comic heroes , it was understandably jarring.
But To say that a fictional character would " never " do something is kind of silly. I've seen Batman get creamed by Bane because he foolishly kept fighting crime when his energy was on empty. Iron man wrecked the city when he was drinking, Hank Pym while fighting depression slapped his wife. Dr. Doom's body was destroyed when he tried to take on Teraxx in the Byrne run, and he admits that he made a mistake by entering the fray instead of sending a Doombot.
This is what gives stories drama.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 10, 2024 20:29:29 GMT -5
Batman kept on with his crime crusade and Bane took advantage of that.
Iron Man was an alcoholic became of the pressure of his life and he wrecked the city
Dr Doom faced the menace himself when he should have sent a robot.
Barbara Gordon was stupid and careless and opened the door and let the Joker in her apartment.
I’m trying to see how the fourth one is in any way like the other three.
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Post by chadwilliam on Nov 10, 2024 22:10:13 GMT -5
I'd argue that no one in The Killing Joke is more out of character than The Joker himself. Tying his enemies to giant birthday cakes and setting them ablaze? Creating his own Joker Utility Belt? Carving his face into the side of Mount Gotham? These are Joker crimes - shooting a woman in the spine and then sexually assaulting her and her father to "prove a point"? Not so much.
Since when does The Joker give "Woe is me" monologues about his place in the world while reflecting upon the tragedy of his past?
Yes, yes - "Bruce, he's different - he's worse than ever this time!" is Moore's way of trying to explain this away (see also; "His old enemies were returning, but they were worse than ever" in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow and Marvelman) but it's really just Moore trying to shoehorn The Joker into his story about somebody else.
Oh, and since we're talking about The Killing Joke, I'll be the one to say it: the real Batman wouldn't share a laugh with The Joker as he's arresting him for crippling and sexually assaulting a woman and her father either.
And yet it's still mistaken as a classic.
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