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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Dec 2, 2014 10:16:58 GMT -5
Definitely She-Hulk belongs on the nomination list. Her first series was pedestrian and uninspired, being there pretty much to grab the TM and not much else. Her personality was quite changed when she resurfaced in Avengers, and later Fantastic Four (that's without even mentioning her great second series, played for laughs, but sort of "out of continuity" in a way). Oddly, I can't even pin the transformation on a writer. At the time, Shooter was "plotting" and had a bunch of different scripters over the months until Grant took over. Could it have been a Shooter idea? Or possibly a lucky break with his tendency to not be that familiar with the current characters and just making stuff up he liked?  If I were to give any name to She-Hulk's change it'd be Slott. Granted he wasn't the first to change her, he just did better, in my opinion than Byrne did. Byrne's just seems more revitilizing because it was such a drastic change from Savage She-Hulk. But Slott's She-Hulk far outdid Byrne's Sensational. Though I will say Sensational certainly had some "sensational" covers. Some of the best rotating roster of artists that really sold the book, no matter the contents. |
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Post by Paradox on Dec 2, 2014 12:30:37 GMT -5
I don't know the various She-Hulk series so not sure which Grant you're talking about... Avengers, not She-Hulk, and Steven Grant, who came on with that trip to Avalon with the Black Knight arc. They'd already gotten rid of Mort. I don't think they were in the market for Mort Jr.  |
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Post by Paradox on Dec 2, 2014 12:40:41 GMT -5
If I were to give any name to She-Hulk's change it'd be Slott. Granted he wasn't the first to change her, he just did better, in my opinion than Byrne did. Byrne's just seems more revitilizing because it was such a drastic change from Savage She-Hulk. But Slott's She-Hulk far outdid Byrne's Sensational. Though I will say Sensational certainly had some "sensational" covers. Some of the best rotating roster of artists that really sold the book, no matter the contents. That's just it, though, it wasn't Byrne in the first place. The change took place in-between the end of her first series and when she showed up in Avengers 221. Byrne really didn't have anything to do with her until after Secret Wars almost two years later with Sensational still five years in the future. Sure, he helped develop her, but you could say the same for Roger Stern (who took over on Avengers after Grant's two-parter). |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 13:07:00 GMT -5
One item of interest here - one of the best re-branding of a property is when Grant Morrison took over the Justice League from January 1997 and had a run of 126 issues and one of the greatest thing that he done is to re-introduce Plastic Man and made him a member of the Justice League during the 16th issue of Morrison's Run.  And, in one infamous event occurred in JLA #33 is when Plastic Man did this unthinkable thing to Big Barda and the rest was history - this is one of many wackiness that Plastic Man brought with him during the the JLA run after issue 16. Mark Waid was responsible for JLA #33.  |
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Post by badwolf on Dec 2, 2014 13:08:22 GMT -5
Agreed on Morrison's JLA. Along with Kurt Busiek's Avengers, it was one of the titles that brought me back to superhero books after years away.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 2, 2014 13:12:58 GMT -5
And, in one infamous event occurred in JLA #33 is when Plastic Man did this unthinkable thing to Big Barda and the rest was history - this is one of many wackiness that Plastic Man brought with him during the the JLA run after issue 16. What? Morrison just made me laugh??? Ah, everything's back to normal, then. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Dec 2, 2014 20:04:09 GMT -5
If I were to give any name to She-Hulk's change it'd be Slott. Granted he wasn't the first to change her, he just did better, in my opinion than Byrne did. Byrne's just seems more revitilizing because it was such a drastic change from Savage She-Hulk. But Slott's She-Hulk far outdid Byrne's Sensational. Though I will say Sensational certainly had some "sensational" covers. Some of the best rotating roster of artists that really sold the book, no matter the contents. That's just it, though, it wasn't Byrne in the first place. The change took place in-between the end of her first series and when she showed up in Avengers 221. Byrne really didn't have anything to do with her until after Secret Wars almost two years later with Sensational still five years in the future. Sure, he helped develop her, but you could say the same for Roger Stern (who took over on Avengers after Grant's two-parter). Fair enough, I've not read those Avengers. I still maintain Slott has reinvented her into a more interesting character than any thus far. |
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Post by berkley on Dec 2, 2014 21:35:30 GMT -5
That Plastic Man scene never strikes me as funny whenever I see it online. More sleazy and contemptible - imagine if, instead of pretending to be a dress, in his normal form he just wrapped and pressed himself up against her against her will in some situation where she couldn't do anything about it. It's basically imposing your unwanted intimate physical contact on someone.
And Plastic Man is still meant to be viewed by the reader as just this wacky guy you're supposed to laugh at, or worse, with? No punishment or serious disapproval from the rest of the team? No one-punch payback from Batman or some other Mr. Moral Superiority? (Maybe there was, I haven't read the comic).
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Post by Paradox on Dec 3, 2014 2:15:25 GMT -5
No, Batman had more a part in shaming him for being a "deadbeat dad". Because that's what Plas was always all about. SERIOUS ISSUES.
Like Capt. Marvel, I think Plas has no place in the DCU, and belongs on some other Earth.
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Post by badwolf on Dec 3, 2014 9:51:32 GMT -5
Like Capt. Marvel, I think Plas has no place in the DCU, and belongs on some other Earth. I sort of agree, but at the same time I liked how he was used in this series. He played an important part in defeating several foes and the perspective that he was potentially the most powerful of them all (because he'd spent millennia in pieces at the bottom of the sea without dying) was very interesting. |
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Post by The Captain on Dec 3, 2014 10:06:57 GMT -5
No, Batman had more a part in shaming him for being a "deadbeat dad". Because that's what Plas was always all about. SERIOUS ISSUES. Like Capt. Marvel, I think Plas has no place in the DCU, and belongs on some other Earth. That's my feeling on Impossible Man and the current incarnation of Deadpool in the MU. Impossible Man is the Jar-Jar Binks of the MU, designed to be kid-friendly and wacky, while annoying anyone over the age of 12. As for Deadpool, if they'd stuck with his original characterization (amoral mercenary willing to do anything for a buck), I'd have no problem with him. His current "Looney Toons" fourth-wall breaking persona, however, grates on me to no end. |
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Post by berkley on Dec 3, 2014 23:57:33 GMT -5
I liked the reinvention of Doctor Strange villainess Umar a few years ago in something drawn by Kevin Maguire, I think - forget who wrote it, maybe Giffen? She was this sensuous beauty who spent most of her time pampering herself in various ways. Very much at odds with previous versions, but I thought it worked.
Unfortunately the new version of Dormammu in the same books wasn't as successful. The new Umar worked because because she was still a force to be reckoned with - perhaps even more than previously - and thus taken seriously, even though the tone of the story was humorous. It was a comedic take on the character but the humour wasn't at the expense of the character, as it was with Dormammu, who became a joke (rather an unfunny one, too) himself, so that the reader lost respect for him. That's the kind of reinvention I don't like.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 4, 2014 0:16:46 GMT -5
That Plastic Man scene never strikes me as funny whenever I see it online. More sleazy and contemptible - imagine if, instead of pretending to be a dress, in his normal form he just wrapped and pressed himself up against her against her will in some situation where she couldn't do anything about it. It's basically imposing your unwanted intimate physical contact on someone. And Plastic Man is still meant to be viewed by the reader as just this wacky guy you're supposed to laugh at, or worse, with? No punishment or serious disapproval from the rest of the team? No one-punch payback from Batman or some other Mr. Moral Superiority? (Maybe there was, I haven't read the comic). It's worth noting that in the original Jack Cole stories, Plastic Man was very much the (I wish their was a better word) straight man for Woozy and the crazy crooks and oddballs that surrounded him. Being that these are some of my favorite superhero comics, ever, I view any other characterization as wrong - even from writers I really like, like Grant Morrison or Bob Haney or Kyle Baker. (Wrong! All of them wrong!) Although in general I thought that Grant Morrison's plot-and-spectacle, anti grim-and-gritty take on the League was very good, depsite quite a few individual characterizations I didn't like. (Because they were wrong!) |
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Post by hondobrode on Dec 4, 2014 0:45:51 GMT -5
The original Valiant Shadowman  which was decent, became better over at Acclaim  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 5:44:40 GMT -5
Unknown Soldier as a Ugandan doctor/philanthropist/brainwashed CIA killing machine.
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