shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 24, 2014 16:25:00 GMT -5
For me it wasn't until Gerhard joined that the art not only wasn't average it was downing right _____ gorgeous. Unless Sim lied and took credit that wasn't deserved, Gerhard's only contribution was the backgrounds, but doing them freed Sim up to spend more time on the foreground and on becoming a stronger penciler. I really enjoy watching his artistic progression. I think I could have drawn those first issues almost as well as he, but some of his later stuff is positively mind-blowing.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 24, 2014 16:48:10 GMT -5
And here's a review I wrote of the series for Amazon.com: A fair review, but while I fully agree with the prophet bit (Dave apparently united a new convert's zeal with his customary incredible energy and uncompromising attitude), I never saw the sexism in the pages of Cerebus. Oh, the editorial pages were replete with all sorts of attacks on feminism and on many aspects of our liberal society, but in the Cerebus world I saw no indication that women were any less capable than men, be it in political astuteness, intelligence, artistic abilities, courage, physical prowess or in greed, selfishness and stupidity. I was even very surprised, during the last few years of the book, to see such a discrepancy between what Dave said and what dave showed. He,d later (retroactively) say that people had built this saintly image of Jaka, but that he had in fact showed her for the shallow character she really was... but no, sorry, Dave, that's not what the comic showed at all. The dysfunctional nature of Jaka and Cerebus' relation was clearly and entirely Cerebus' fault, as far as I'm concerned. Am I at fault, as a reader, to have failed to grasp the author's intention? Perhaps. Or perhaps the characters were so well defined in Dave's head that he couldn't alter them, in later years, to fit his changing agenda.
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ironchimp
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Post by ironchimp on Aug 24, 2014 17:39:39 GMT -5
I've only read the first 50 but in those issues, but it's jaka who tries to bring him out of the world of courtly fops and spineless business men when she buys him a sword to show him his true nature as a fighter for which she gets a cowardly slap in the face.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 24, 2014 18:01:11 GMT -5
And here's a review I wrote of the series for Amazon.com: A fair review, but while I fully agree with the prophet bit (Dave apparently united a new convert's zeal with his customary incredible energy and uncompromising attitude), I never saw the sexism in the pages of Cerebus. Oh, the editorial pages were replete with all sorts of attacks on feminism and on many aspects of our liberal society, but in the Cerebus world I saw no indication that women were any less capable than men, be it in political astuteness, intelligence, artistic abilities, courage, physical prowess or in greed, selfishness and stupidity. I was even very surprised, during the last few years of the book, to see such a discrepancy between what Dave said and what dave showed. He,d later (retroactively) say that people had built this saintly image of Jaka, but that he had in fact showed her for the shallow character she really was... but no, sorry, Dave, that's not what the comic showed at all. The dysfunctional nature of Jaka and Cerebus' relation was clearly and entirely Cerebus' fault, as far as I'm concerned. Am I at fault, as a reader, to have failed to grasp the author's intention? Perhaps. Or perhaps the characters were so well defined in Dave's head that he couldn't alter them, in later years, to fit his changing agenda. The sexism rears its heads most clearly in that rant in Reads. You know, the one that accused women of opening up men's heads and eating out their brains as part of an illicit feminist agenda? Otherwise, Astoria, that girlfriend from Guys, and the matriarchal theocracy aside, I agree that Sim depicted some women who were equal to, if not superior to, his male characters. Sim is rarely consistent in his attitudes and beliefs. I find it fascinating that even as Cerebus becomes a sort of prophet for Sim's newfound religious beliefs in Latter Days, Sim alternates between treating these beliefs very seriously and mocking the religion that Cerebus builds out of them. I still can't decide whether Sim's goal in Jaka's story was to make Jaka into a tragic/sympathetic figure or an unworthy strumpet. He seems wishy-washy on the subject of Jaka even then.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 24, 2014 20:41:41 GMT -5
The sexism rears its heads most clearly in that rant in Reads. You know, the one that accused women of opening up men's heads and eating out their brains as part of an illicit feminist agenda? Yes indeed, in those two short stories starring creators who get caught in the evil snares of editors and greedy female companions (creators who were basically Dave Sim as he sees himself, I expect). However, in those stories, I don't see an individual victim of other people's flaws; I see a foolish creator who gets caught by the siren song of success and then becomes dependent on the lifestyle his newfound money gave him, and is then forced to accept compromises to his integrity to make ends meet. With, all the while, his being "forced" to satisfy his girlfriend's expectations (or what he perceives as her expectations) for fear of losing her affection. That entire run of Reads did not seem intrinsically sexist to me: rather, it suggested that Dave has a strange conception of what a healthy relationship between a man and a woman is (and what it can be). At no point does the protagonist say "darling, Even though this house is beautiful, I can't afford to pay for it unless I do things that I would rather not do". At no point during the process does he think " instead of letting this easy money go to my head, I'll just keep the same lifestyle and put money aside for the rainy days". In other words, rather than an indictment of feminism or even women in general, it struck me as an unwitting indictment of economically irresponsible and emotionally immature individuals. Oh, indeed: Astoria has, I think, the greatest scene in the series... when, during the meeting with Cirin, Po and Cerebus, she sees that all her work has brought her exactly what she had no interest in: power and an unquestioning army of followers... and she simply turns her back on all that. Powerful stuff, showing a maturity that no male character shows anywhere in the book. Yeah... I think that even as a believer, Dave could see that mere mortals (and especially self-serving ones like Cerebus) would always make of religion something a little ridiculous. I don't know; I found her cumulation of the roles of wife, lover, mother, big sister, self-made person, breadwinner and housemaker made her the ultimate responsible adult, especially compared to her lazy eternal teenage bum of a husband and the totally self-centered Cerebus. The only flaw I can find in Jaka is that she was not physically very courageous; but that can be true of any character, male or female. I don't think Dave meant her to look bad at that early stage.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 25, 2014 4:37:35 GMT -5
The sexism rears its heads most clearly in that rant in Reads. You know, the one that accused women of opening up men's heads and eating out their brains as part of an illicit feminist agenda? Yes indeed, in those two short stories starring creators who get caught in the evil snares of editors and greedy female companions (creators who were basically Dave Sim as he sees himself, I expect). However, in those stories, I don't see an individual victim of other people's flaws; I see a foolish creator who gets caught by the siren song of success and then becomes dependent on the lifestyle his newfound money gave him, and is then forced to accept compromises to his integrity to make ends meet. With, all the while, his being "forced" to satisfy his girlfriend's expectations (or what he perceives as her expectations) for fear of losing her affection. I was referring more to the part where Sim (or a thinly disguised version of Sim) speaks directly to the reader about the dangers of feminism. Yes, but, at the close, she's been condemned by both the Church and Rick over the abortion issue, and there's an abrupt change in tone that comes with it.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 25, 2014 5:49:02 GMT -5
[ Yes, but, at the close, she's been condemned by both the Church and Rick over the abortion issue, and there's an abrupt change in tone that comes with it. Wouldn't you agree that this condemnation underscores both the brutality and dogmatism of the church and Rick's immaturity? The former is clearly intent on imposing its rules on everyone, down to the way people are supposed to think. As for Rick, instead of realizing that his own laziness and childishness has deprived him of what he wanted most in the world, he lashes out at the only person in the world who actually cares for him (and the one who saved his life by her quick thinking when she demanded diplomatic immunity a short while ago). Jaka having to walk on her principles and go back to Palnu ( surrendering her hard-won independence) was one of the saddest developments in the series' plot, in my opinion; and even worse, perhaps, was seeing how she settled for a life of relative contentment as "the princess of Palnu" from that moment on. I thought I could see in her many of my childhood friends who, after a few years of traveling the world and doing amazing things, settled too early to a life of suburbs, two and a half kids and worrying about their pension plan.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Aug 25, 2014 9:27:48 GMT -5
For me it wasn't until Gerhard joined that the art not only wasn't average it was downing right _____ gorgeous. Unless Sim lied and took credit that wasn't deserved, Gerhard's only contribution was the backgrounds, but doing them freed Sim up to spend more time on the foreground and on becoming a stronger penciler. I really enjoy watching his artistic progression. I think I could have drawn those first issues almost as well as he, but some of his later stuff is positively mind-blowing. Yeah I may have worded that in a way that made it sound as if Gerhard was directly responsible, for which I do not know. But for me, I could tell a vast improvement, whether Gerhard's presence was a direct or indirect influence. And if it just keeps getting better the further on it goes, I look forward to jumping back into it soon.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 25, 2014 18:56:28 GMT -5
[ Yes, but, at the close, she's been condemned by both the Church and Rick over the abortion issue, and there's an abrupt change in tone that comes with it. Wouldn't you agree that this condemnation underscores both the brutality and dogmatism of the church Absolutely There's where I'm not so sure. Sim depicts Rick as immature and, to some extent, a burden on Jaka, but he also paints the character as being so endearing and innocent. In the end, I think Sim emphasizes how Rick was betrayed over how Jaka has lost control over her own life. But I waver on this. I guess I don't see it that way. I saw the abortions as being Jaka's attempt to maintain some control over her life and/or not fully tie herself down to Rick. It's true that money was hard, but that didn't come across as a key factor in Jaka's decision from where I was standing. I concur, and I think Sim is generally sympathetic to Jaka, even seeing Cerebus as unworthy of her at various times (most movingly at the close of Going Home), but I waver on the ending of Jaka's story.
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Post by gothos on Aug 28, 2014 15:07:03 GMT -5
And here's a review I wrote of the series for Amazon.com: A fair review, but while I fully agree with the prophet bit (Dave apparently united a new convert's zeal with his customary incredible energy and uncompromising attitude), I never saw the sexism in the pages of Cerebus. Oh, the editorial pages were replete with all sorts of attacks on feminism and on many aspects of our liberal society, but in the Cerebus world I saw no indication that women were any less capable than men, be it in political astuteness, intelligence, artistic abilities, courage, physical prowess or in greed, selfishness and stupidity. I was even very surprised, during the last few years of the book, to see such a discrepancy between what Dave said and what dave showed. He,d later (retroactively) say that people had built this saintly image of Jaka, but that he had in fact showed her for the shallow character she really was... but no, sorry, Dave, that's not what the comic showed at all. The dysfunctional nature of Jaka and Cerebus' relation was clearly and entirely Cerebus' fault, as far as I'm concerned. Am I at fault, as a reader, to have failed to grasp the author's intention? Perhaps. Or perhaps the characters were so well defined in Dave's head that he couldn't alter them, in later years, to fit his changing agenda. Yeah, Dave was, consciously or not, too much of an artist to be a good ideologue. One of my favorite examples of this is an incident that transpires a little while before GOING HOME. Jaka is waiting for Cerebus in a bar, and when no one else is around, Cerebus' buddy Bear puffs his cigar and blows smoke in her face. She simply stands up regally, not even looking at Bear, and leaves the bar. Now, it *may* have been Sim's intention to show Jaka as a "Miss Priss" by that situation. But IMO, the only thing Sim accomplished was to make Bear-- up to that point treated like a personification of manly virtues-- look like a total shitstain. On a related note, I've always thought that Sim has satirized readers of superhero comics more trenchantly than any of a dozen so-called satirists who approach the subject "from the outside" as it were, like Clowes and Crumb. Sim, of course, was a superhero fan at one time or another. So when Bear dresses down Cerebus for his love of a "stoopid" graphic read in GUYS (I think), it carries a lot more weight than a dozen supposedly "arty" satires.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 28, 2014 18:23:09 GMT -5
A fair review, but while I fully agree with the prophet bit (Dave apparently united a new convert's zeal with his customary incredible energy and uncompromising attitude), I never saw the sexism in the pages of Cerebus. Oh, the editorial pages were replete with all sorts of attacks on feminism and on many aspects of our liberal society, but in the Cerebus world I saw no indication that women were any less capable than men, be it in political astuteness, intelligence, artistic abilities, courage, physical prowess or in greed, selfishness and stupidity. I was even very surprised, during the last few years of the book, to see such a discrepancy between what Dave said and what dave showed. He,d later (retroactively) say that people had built this saintly image of Jaka, but that he had in fact showed her for the shallow character she really was... but no, sorry, Dave, that's not what the comic showed at all. The dysfunctional nature of Jaka and Cerebus' relation was clearly and entirely Cerebus' fault, as far as I'm concerned. Am I at fault, as a reader, to have failed to grasp the author's intention? Perhaps. Or perhaps the characters were so well defined in Dave's head that he couldn't alter them, in later years, to fit his changing agenda. Yeah, Dave was, consciously or not, too much of an artist to be a good ideologue. One of my favorite examples of this is an incident that transpires a little while before GOING HOME. Jaka is waiting for Cerebus in a bar, and when no one else is around, Cerebus' buddy Bear puffs his cigar and blows smoke in her face. She simply stands up regally, not even looking at Bear, and leaves the bar. Now, it *may* have been Sim's intention to show Jaka as a "Miss Priss" by that situation. But IMO, the only thing Sim accomplished was to make Bear-- up to that point treated like a personification of manly virtues-- look like a total shitstain. I agree completely!
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ironchimp
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Post by ironchimp on Aug 30, 2014 6:40:15 GMT -5
On a related note, I've always thought that Sim has satirized readers of superhero comics more trenchantly than any of a dozen so-called satirists who approach the subject "from the outside" as it were, like Clowes and Crumb. Sim, of course, was a superhero fan at one time or another. So when Bear dresses down Cerebus for his love of a "stoopid" graphic read in GUYS (I think), it carries a lot more weight than a dozen supposedly "arty" satires. Clowes was a self confessed fanboy as a kid
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Post by Jesse on Nov 23, 2014 16:51:30 GMT -5
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 23, 2014 16:54:54 GMT -5
Very powerful, if somewhat simplistic in its analysis of the Holocaust. Definitely an experience worth having for its visuals and pacing, though.
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Post by gothos on Nov 24, 2014 16:58:17 GMT -5
I've only read the first 50 but in those issues, but it's jaka who tries to bring him out of the world of courtly fops and spineless business men when she buys him a sword to show him his true nature as a fighter for which she gets a cowardly slap in the face. I remember the bit about Jaka giving Cerebus a sword to provoke him out of his complaisance, but I don't remember him slapping her in that sequence. Maybe I'll have a chance to pull out the issue tonight. I'm fairly certain he hits her during the much later "Going Home" sequence, though.
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