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Post by gothos on Jun 25, 2014 17:18:22 GMT -5
I'm curious to know whether or not it's possible to discuss Dave Sim's work here.
I don't agree with too much of what Dave stands for, but he is one of the medium's outstanding technical artists.
I don't know if it's possible to discuss him, though, without devoting too much space to his social and political beliefs. It's been possible to discuss Ditko without dealing with his politics; is it possible to do with Sim? It seems to me that since this isn't a political forum, one would almost have to tiptoe around the political content, to avoid the sort of ultra-acrimonious quarrels that cropped up on the old CBR.
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 25, 2014 18:58:42 GMT -5
I do think it's possible to discuss Sim's many artistic achievements and his ethics of self-publication as long as you begin from a place that acknowledges his bizarre and abhorrent beliefs. Those beliefs are absolutely part of the Sim story and need to be discussed, but I actually get upset when discussions about Sim's contributions to the medium are reduced to talking about those beliefs. We are dealing with the man who has, in my opinion, produced the greatest achievement in comics in 300 self-published issues of Cerebus, is one of the medium's finest draftsmen ever, perhaps its finest characturist and letterer, and a true innovator in storytelling technique. It's a shame that he's simply "Sim the Misogynist" to so many people, but at the same time, I don't feel that you can separate those crazy beliefs from an honest critical evaluation of his work. It's an important part of the picture--maybe even the most important part-- but it is not the entirty of the picture.
I also think it's a shame that Gerhard gets almost no recognition. He's also one of the finest artists the medium has ever seen, and I don't think anyone has ever consistantly put as much detail into his work as Gerhard has throughout his career. He is perhaps the finest inker/finisher/embellisher the medium has ever seen, but he's almost completely ignored or reduced to "the background guy".
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 18:59:21 GMT -5
We've discussed Frank Miller in here without any problems.
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 25, 2014 19:04:22 GMT -5
We've discussed Frank Miller in here without any problems. I also get upset with the "Frank Miller thinks all women are whores" meme. I don't deny that there are troubling aspects in his work, particularly in more recent years, but I also think that the criticism is far too reductive and often flies in the face of what's actually going on in his work. (See Karen Page in Born Again. The beginning of the story gets cited constantly, but never its resolution, where Karen finds the courage within herself to change and actually saves Matt Murdock.) |
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Post by Jasoomian on Jun 25, 2014 19:07:03 GMT -5
I was looking forward to a Bongo Comics thread...
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 25, 2014 19:08:26 GMT -5
I was looking forward to a Bongo Comics thread... Haha. I actually clicked on the thread thinking it was about The Simpsons. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 25, 2014 19:31:58 GMT -5
I am totally willing to discuss Cerebus. Though I am only through Church & State, I may be doing more reading and observing than posting. This thread might get me going in buying more volumes again but if I do if probably read what I have again since it's been two years or so since I've read them.
As far as Sim himself I could give two ____ about what he thinks. If his beliefs are in his work, then it's a matter of coincidence and a part of the story. I am interested more in Cerebus, Astoria, etc than Sim himself. Everyone's entitled to their beliefs and opinions. I don't have a problem recognizing them as two different entities. I don't think disagreeing with someone's beliefs somehow invalidates their artistic accomplishments.
And I agree with Gerhard's contfibutions. The artwork went from 5 year old with crayons to absolutely ____ing beautiful.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 19:35:16 GMT -5
We've discussed Frank Miller in here without any problems. I also get upset with the "Frank Miller thinks all women are whores" meme. I don't deny that there are troubling aspects in his work, particularly in more recent years, but I also think that the criticism is far too reductive and often flies in the face of what's actually going on in his work. (See Karen Page in Born Again. The beginning of the story gets cited constantly, but never its resolution, where Karen finds the courage within herself to change and actually saves Matt Murdock.) Same as people's criticisms of Moore, I tune out when someone clearly doesn't understand context. Yeah, all the women in Sin City were prostitutes. All the men were drunken corrupt scumbags. Carrie Kelley isn't a whore, by the way. Neither was Wonder Woman or her daughter in DKSA. The entire concept of Sin City is there's nothing pretty in that world and nobody is clean. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 25, 2014 20:17:24 GMT -5
I was looking forward to a Bongo Comics thread... Haha. I actually clicked on the thread thinking it was about The Simpsons. Me too! Cei-U! D'oh! |
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Post by Rob Allen on Jun 25, 2014 20:18:37 GMT -5
Haha. I actually clicked on the thread thinking it was about The Simpsons. Me too! Cei-U! D'oh! Me four! (this board doesn't seem to quote more than 2 levels deep) |
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Post by hondobrode on Jun 25, 2014 20:40:11 GMT -5
Agree completely on Sim's genius storytelling and that, sadly, he has some deep issues. His reputation as a comics master is far overshadowed by his notoriety.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jun 25, 2014 21:15:17 GMT -5
I'll start a new one
Me too
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,701
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Post by shaxper on Jun 26, 2014 9:06:49 GMT -5
I don't think Sim would want us to separate his work from his beliefs. Reads and Latter Days were clear evidence of that.
I do feel, without hestitation, that Sim is the absolute greatest genius the comic medium ever had AND that he's severely unstable, all at the same time.
He did things with the comic book format that I still haven't seen replicated three decades later.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2014 9:10:53 GMT -5
I haven't read far enough into Cerebus for things to get weird. He's a great illustrator, but what I know of Cerebus is pretty run of the mill sword and sorcery with a dash of parody. I know it gets domestic later. I have scattered issues where it's just Cerebus sitting on the couch ranting. Haven't read many of them though.
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ironchimp
Full Member
Simian Overlord
Posts: 456 
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Post by ironchimp on Jun 26, 2014 9:20:13 GMT -5
did anyone read through glamourpuss? - i read a couple of issues and quite enjoyed it - i wasn't entirely sure what the point of it was but there was lots of very interesting stuff about classic inking techniques amidst beautifully drawn but kind of pointless reworkings of glamour ads where the women were crossed eyed bimbos. the material on illustration though was really first class. a strange unusual comic which is no bad thing in itself it was just difficult to see where it was going to go after a few issues.
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