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Post by LovesGilKane on Jun 23, 2017 3:01:01 GMT -5
The thing about Byrne's work always was/is that it's always dependent on the inks, due to his innate understanding of how to mesh rendering with modelling-of-the-figure. Under Austin, Hunt, Layton, and his own hand, he shines. Under Perlin (who's Ghost Rider was some of the worst art ever produced by anyone for Marvel), it withered. Byrne and Hunt:
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 23, 2017 8:18:07 GMT -5
Wow, loathesware, you really hate Perlin. I wouldn't praise him, but I always found his art serviceable, journeyman work. And far from the worst art Marvel ever published.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2017 14:27:54 GMT -5
I always thought John Byrne was overrated. Nothing he's done - that I have read - stood out as being anything special. (Sorry!) i'd like to debate that re his Starlord work. I haven't read those, in fact there's probably tons of his stuff that I haven't read, but I thought his Wonder Woman run was awful and the Spider-Man: Chapter One stuff in the late 90's was fairly dire too. His FF stuff was okay, but as I said above, nothing special.
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Post by badwolf on Jun 23, 2017 15:34:09 GMT -5
i'd like to debate that re his Starlord work. I haven't read those, in fact there's probably tons of his stuff that I haven't read, but I thought his Wonder Woman run was awful and the Spider-Man: Chapter One stuff in the late 90's was fairly dire too. His FF stuff was okay, but as I said above, nothing special. I've always been a huge Byrne fan but I agree that Wonder Woman and Spidey Chapter 1 were pretty poor (with the latter having no reason to exist at all.)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 23, 2017 19:33:18 GMT -5
i'd like to debate that re his Starlord work. I haven't read those, in fact there's probably tons of his stuff that I haven't read, but I thought his Wonder Woman run was awful and the Spider-Man: Chapter One stuff in the late 90's was fairly dire too. His FF stuff was okay, but as I said above, nothing special. Byrne's Starlord was (if memory serves) the first outing of the Claremont/Byrne/Austin team, in Marvel Preview #11 (later reprinted, at least once, in a special color issue). It's a neat swashbuckling SF romp with all the freshness and energy of the first Star Wars movie. John brings his signature starships and spacesuits as well as weird looking aliens, with a few amazing scenes set on alien planets. It's really worth tracking down.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 23, 2017 19:57:46 GMT -5
It was a nice issue, but I don't remember it being great or anything.
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Post by DubipR on Jun 23, 2017 23:13:45 GMT -5
If Byrne is that era's Adams what does that make Perez. Perez didn't generate many imitators, either in drawing style or storytelling techniques. Apart from Phil Jimenez, I can't think of anyone who drew like him. Not to say he isn't as good as Byrne; just that the admiration people had for him didn't translate into imitation as much as was the case for the latter. Where does that put Jerry Ordway? Jackson Guice? Kieron Dwyer and all the other people in mid 80s/early 90s that did the Superman era books? Would you call them Perez imitators or they more Byrne? They all sort of blend their styles....
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jun 24, 2017 0:05:35 GMT -5
I haven't read those, in fact there's probably tons of his stuff that I haven't read, but I thought his Wonder Woman run was awful and the Spider-Man: Chapter One stuff in the late 90's was fairly dire too. His FF stuff was okay, but as I said above, nothing special. Byrne's Starlord was (if memory serves) the first outing of the Claremont/Byrne/Austin team, in Marvel Preview #11 (later reprinted, at least once, in a special color issue). It's a neat swashbuckling SF romp with all the freshness and energy of the first Star Wars movie. John brings his signature starships and spacesuits as well as weird looking aliens, with a few amazing scenes set on alien planets. It's really worth tracking down. Precisely, but also, it ushered in the soon-to-be-classic Byrne/Austin attention to finesse on cheekbones, jawlines, and most-importantly, how they meshed perfectly in creating new costumes, showing 'weight of leather' vs. 'lightness of silk', etc. Which as a young burgeoning artist, struck me like a hard crush-at-1st-sight.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jun 24, 2017 4:09:03 GMT -5
Wow, loathesware, you really hate Perlin. I wouldn't praise him, but I always found his art serviceable, journeyman work. And far from the worst art Marvel ever published. Again, you jumped to 'hate'. Naughty naughty, untrue. Don't pull a 'milo yiannopoulos' on me, please.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 24, 2017 9:54:00 GMT -5
Wow, loathesware, you really hate Perlin. I wouldn't praise him, but I always found his art serviceable, journeyman work. And far from the worst art Marvel ever published. Again, you jumped to 'hate'. Naughty naughty, untrue. Don't pull a 'milo yiannopoulos' on me, please. I should have said you hate Perlin's work, not hate the man. But I don't want to put words in your mouth, if you don't like the word hate, you still posted a very strong negative statement about Perlin. Either way, my statement stands, can't agree with "worst artwork ever" and I didn't think him awful.
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Post by james on Jun 24, 2017 23:02:21 GMT -5
Perez didn't generate many imitators, either in drawing style or storytelling techniques. Apart from Phil Jimenez, I can't think of anyone who drew like him. Not to say he isn't as good as Byrne; just that the admiration people had for him didn't translate into imitation as much as was the case for the latter. Where does that put Jerry Ordway? Jackson Guice? Kieron Dwyer and all the other people in mid 80s/early 90s that did the Superman era books? Would you call them Perez imitators or they more Byrne? They all sort of blend their styles.... Since Kieron Dwyer was Byrne's step son im sure he got a lot of his style from Byrne. I never really thought Ordway really imitated Perez or Byrne. And Jackson Guice always seemed to have his own style as well though i have seen some of his cover art to be reminiscent of Bill Sinkiecwich. I know i butched his last name and i apologize.
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Post by james on Jun 24, 2017 23:03:31 GMT -5
The thing about Byrne's work always was/is that it's always dependent on the inks, due to his innate understanding of how to mesh rendering with modelling-of-the-figure. Under Austin, Hunt, Layton, and his own hand, he shines. Under Perlin (who's Ghost Rider was some of the worst art ever produced by anyone for Marvel), it withered. Byrne and Hunt: Couldnt agree more! I always felt t he same about JRJR's art.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jun 25, 2017 4:24:58 GMT -5
Again, you jumped to 'hate'. Naughty naughty, untrue. Don't pull a 'milo yiannopoulos' on me, please. I should have said you hate Perlin's work, not hate the man. But I don't want to put words in your mouth, if you don't like the word hate, you still posted a very strong negative statement about Perlin.Either way, my statement stands, can't agree with "worst artwork ever" and I didn't think him awful. again, loathe is not hate. I loathe ware's work (and his callous self-promotion) but don't hate either him or his work, and drawing a destinction between the two, and critiquing sans sugar-coating is a privilege that one earns after sacrifices made in freelancing for comics. Just as Harlan Ellison earned in narrative fiction. It's not possible to answer this thread's question under your philosophical requirements. Art quality judgements happen every hour, not merely every day, in auction houses, insurance firms, galleries, and more. Such happens to Byrne art, judged against other artists and in fact judged - page by page, year by year - against his own art. This very thread is in fact a defacto debate upon the merits of Byrne, or lack thereof. Many loathe him, or despise him, for his worldview and tenets. Many more in the world despise and loathe Caravaggio in exactly the same way for the same reasons. Yet the work and the artist's oft-repugnant philosophies are separate. James' question, like this thread's subtextual question, was valid from the outset because the art-valuation-machine exists and will never go away. the 'you still posted a very strong negative statement about Perlin' line is in fact exactly what James asked for; he's the author of the thread, not you. If you are emotionally uncomfortable with this thread or what it implies, your complaint is with him, and should be taken up with him, not myself, and not use complaints towards my posts to serve as 'anti-platforming' James, without debating James yourself. And as an ex free-lancer I'd be happy to DEBATE Perlin's merit (or lack thereof) with you on a real-life-experience basis. Since debate is not 'berzerkely' @$%#!! claptrap, and won't stymie this thread. because 2 of my greatest heroes, Gore Vidal and Harvey Milk, were fab debaters, and in fact helped evolve debate (vs sjw passive aggressive shut-down tactics) into a public-media art form. This thread about Byrne dovetails with james' thread, james has posted here, you've complained to me here re harsh crique (in both threads, to me), so I answer using james' thread as well, in context. Since here, there has also been steely-evaluation of Byrne, as much as any other thread which broaches 'who sucked, when, and why?'.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 25, 2017 8:21:29 GMT -5
I should have said you hate Perlin's work, not hate the man. But I don't want to put words in your mouth, if you don't like the word hate, you still posted a very strong negative statement about Perlin.Either way, my statement stands, can't agree with "worst artwork ever" and I didn't think him awful. again, loathe is not hate. I loathe ware's work (and his callous self-promotion) but don't hate either him or his work, and drawing a destinction between the two, and critiquing sans sugar-coating is a privilege that one earns after sacrifices made in freelancing for comics. Just as Harlan Ellison earned in narrative fiction. It's not possible to answer this thread's question under your philosophical requirements. Art quality judgements happen every hour, not merely every day, in auction houses, insurance firms, galleries, and more. Such happens to Byrne art, judged against other artists and in fact judged - page by page, year by year - against his own art. This very thread is in fact a defacto debate upon the merits of Byrne, or lack thereof. Many loathe him, or despise him, for his worldview and tenets. Many more in the world despise and loathe Caravaggio in exactly the same way for the same reasons. Yet the work and the artist's oft-repugnant philosophies are separate. James' question, like this thread's subtextual question, was valid from the outset because the art-valuation-machine exists and will never go away. the 'you still posted a very strong negative statement about Perlin' line is in fact exactly what James asked for; he's the author of the thread, not you. If you are emotionally uncomfortable with this thread or what it implies, your complaint is with him, and should be taken up with him, not myself, and not use complaints towards my posts to serve as 'anti-platforming' James, without debating James yourself. And as an ex free-lancer I'd be happy to DEBATE Perlin's merit (or lack thereof) with you on a real-life-experience basis. Since debate is not 'berzerkely' @$%#!! claptrap, and won't stymie this thread. because 2 of my greatest heroes, Gore Vidal and Harvey Milk, were fab debaters, and in fact helped evolve debate (vs sjw passive aggressive shut-down tactics) into a public-media art form. This thread about Byrne dovetails with james' thread, james has posted here, you've complained to me here re harsh crique (in both threads, to me), so I answer using james' thread as well, in context. Since here, there has also been steely-evaluation of Byrne, as much as any other thread which broaches 'who sucked, when, and why?'. I don't know if we need to debate Perlin's work. I didn't think him a particularly good artist, but not a terrible one either. I just found your "worst artwork ever" statement strong, as i have never seen Perlin listed in the group of worst Marvel artists ever. So I commented on my surprise that you felt some of his work fit that category. Not that you aren't entitled to your opinion of him. And thanks for the "loathes Ware" explanation in the other thread.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jun 26, 2017 0:31:11 GMT -5
again, loathe is not hate. I loathe ware's work (and his callous self-promotion) but don't hate either him or his work, and drawing a destinction between the two, and critiquing sans sugar-coating is a privilege that one earns after sacrifices made in freelancing for comics. Just as Harlan Ellison earned in narrative fiction. It's not possible to answer this thread's question under your philosophical requirements. Art quality judgements happen every hour, not merely every day, in auction houses, insurance firms, galleries, and more. Such happens to Byrne art, judged against other artists and in fact judged - page by page, year by year - against his own art. This very thread is in fact a defacto debate upon the merits of Byrne, or lack thereof. Many loathe him, or despise him, for his worldview and tenets. Many more in the world despise and loathe Caravaggio in exactly the same way for the same reasons. Yet the work and the artist's oft-repugnant philosophies are separate. James' question, like this thread's subtextual question, was valid from the outset because the art-valuation-machine exists and will never go away. the 'you still posted a very strong negative statement about Perlin' line is in fact exactly what James asked for; he's the author of the thread, not you. If you are emotionally uncomfortable with this thread or what it implies, your complaint is with him, and should be taken up with him, not myself, and not use complaints towards my posts to serve as 'anti-platforming' James, without debating James yourself. And as an ex free-lancer I'd be happy to DEBATE Perlin's merit (or lack thereof) with you on a real-life-experience basis. Since debate is not 'berzerkely' @$%#!! claptrap, and won't stymie this thread. because 2 of my greatest heroes, Gore Vidal and Harvey Milk, were fab debaters, and in fact helped evolve debate (vs sjw passive aggressive shut-down tactics) into a public-media art form. This thread about Byrne dovetails with james' thread, james has posted here, you've complained to me here re harsh crique (in both threads, to me), so I answer using james' thread as well, in context. Since here, there has also been steely-evaluation of Byrne, as much as any other thread which broaches 'who sucked, when, and why?'. I don't know if we need to debate Perlin's work. I didn't think him a particularly good artist, but not a terrible one either. I just found your "worst artwork ever" statement strong, as i have never seen Perlin listed in the group of worst Marvel artists ever. So I commented on my surprise that you felt some of his work fit that category. Not that you aren't entitled to your opinion of him. And thanks for the "loathes Ware" explanation in the other thread. Thank you in return for your sublime equanimity a rare quality in the 'inter-webs' these days. My opinion on Perlin comes from how inking, one way or the other, affects the perception of the reader/buyer; affects their perception of the writer, and the penciler, of the comic-title en toto. Great reply post! luv ya!
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