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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 19, 2023 20:03:16 GMT -5
What about other publishers' mega-cross-ever-continuity-shattering events? I vaguely remember that Valiant and Image had them too, just few years they started publishing! What continuity they had to clean-up?!? I don't know about Image, but at Valiant the Unity 2000 crossover was due to the company being bought out by Acclaim, with all the series being rebooted. That gave us two continuities, which the PTB eventually decided to do something about in the hope of maybe generating enough interest among older readers to keep the line afloat. (As it is, the crossover itself was never finished!) The original Valiant universe was, at first, an amazing example of continuity done right: the timeline was established for thousands of years and could not be changed. You knew who would die when, and often how. You saw events happen in the XX century that would affect Magnus' XL century, and in the Rai #0 special we got an eagle-eye view of the whole thing. It was quite impressive! Writers had enough leeway to create exciting and unexpected stories, but nonsensical major plot twists (*cough! sins past! cough!*) introduced "just because" were harder to pull off. |
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 20, 2023 5:01:39 GMT -5
The thing with Secret Wars is that, inevitably, the age you were when it came out is almost certainly going to influence your opinion of it. I was 11 years old and I thought it was an amazing comic series -- precisely because I was 11 years old. The whole concept, simplistic though it was, was exactly the sort of "good guys vs bad guys" battle royal I would enact with action figures with my school friends. It was just big, dumb superhero fun and at purely being that it succeeded brilliantly. Now, if you were an older fan who was in their late teens or 20s and 30s when it came out, chances are you probably thought it was a load of rubbish, but then it wasn't really aimed at your age group. And let's be honest, Secret Wars really had very little to offer outside of "hey, look...it's Spider-Man, Captain America, the FF etc kicking the c**p out of Doctor Octopus, Enchantress, Doctor Doom etc -- cooool!!" These days I can absolutely see the shortcomings the mini-series had, but if I re-read it as an adult I can still enjoy it for what it is -- big, dumb superhero fun. Though I also acknowledge that such an opinion is one hundred percent soaked in rose-tinted nostalgia. I think this is important on so many levels. I enjoyed Superman III as a kid. From the scrapyard fight to that scary “robot woman”, it appealed to me. It was like a comicbook brought to life, so to speak. Now, I read some criticisms of the film from the likes of critics who might have been, say, 45 at the time. So, yes, through older eyes, maybe I can understand why an older critic might not have taken to elements of the film. Today, I can see its flaws (some of them) but there’s enough nostalgia and goodwill for me to still enjoy the movie. So, I’m sure if people did a poll about that film, the age you were when it came out, or when you first saw it on videotape, would influence your opinion. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2023 7:29:29 GMT -5
I kind of have a "flip side of the coin" opinion on that. I can still appreciate something like Secret Wars fairly on the same level as when I first read it BECAUSE I know it was intended as lighter straightforward superhero fare. I don't see how it's all that different from a fair amount of 60's Marvel comics that people worship so much honestly (if we're really honest about some of that older content much as I love it too). It's not "less legit" because it was made for the actual age group comics were traditionally intended for. This whole phenomenon of "older readers" demanding supposedly "better" more mature comics actually has aged worse for me.
Like Dark Knight and Watchmen? Loved them at the time, but now they almost seem a little too nerdy to me, I haven't re-read them in forever. Every time I try it's because of nostalgia, but then I start and I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of past this. Same thing just happened with me recently trying to re-read William Gibson's Neuromancer, I got part way in and I'm like, ah man, this guy just needs a date or something. I kid you not, I pulled out an old Hardy Boys book just to "cleanse the palate" if you will.
I'm sure, though, this is very much a "your mileage may vary" kind of topic! Certain things just don't age as well for each of us for whatever reason.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,199 
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Post by Confessor on Oct 20, 2023 9:03:25 GMT -5
I kind of have a "flip side of the coin" opinion on that. I can still appreciate something like Secret Wars fairly on the same level as when I first read it BECAUSE I know it was intended as lighter straightforward superhero fare. I don't see how it's all that different from a fair amount of 60's Marvel comics that people worship so much honestly (if we're really honest about some of that older content much as I love it too). I get where you're coming from and even sort of agree in some cases -- the Human Torch stories in Strange Tales make Secret Wars look like Shakespeare! But an awful lot of Silver Age Marvel was definitely head and shoulders above Secret Wars in terms of its plotting, characterisation and sheer imagination. Plus, Silver Age greats like Spider-Man, Dr Strange, and Fantastic Four weren't just being "written down" to children; Stan Lee et al were also "writing up" to college-age kids and even young soldiers serving in the military. This is particularly true from the mid-60s onwards. Secret Wars, on the other hand, was definitely written for kids of, I guess, 8-14 or so? The attendant toy line and the comic's genesis as a way to sell those toys is proof enough of that. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2023 10:14:12 GMT -5
I kind of have a "flip side of the coin" opinion on that. I can still appreciate something like Secret Wars fairly on the same level as when I first read it BECAUSE I know it was intended as lighter straightforward superhero fare. I don't see how it's all that different from a fair amount of 60's Marvel comics that people worship so much honestly (if we're really honest about some of that older content much as I love it too). I get where you're coming from and even sort of agree in some cases -- the Human Torch stories in Strange Tales make Secret Wars look like Shakespeare! But an awful lot of Silver Age Marvel was definitely head and shoulders above Secret Wars in terms of its plotting, characterisation and sheer imagination. Plus, Silver Age greats like Spider-Man, Dr Strange, and Fantastic Four weren't just being "written down" to children; Stan Lee et al were also "writing up" to college-age kids and even young soldiers serving in the military. This is particularly true from the mid-60s onwards. Secret Wars, on the other hand, was definitely written for kids of, I guess, 8-14 or so? The attendant toy line and the comic's genesis as a way to sell those toys is proof enough of that. Yeah, I guess as you say it depends. But while I have lovely nostalgia for Silver Age Marvel and have many complete runs collected in Masterworks and Epic collections, I find a fair amount a slog to read through even though I totally appreciate all the awesome stuff it introduced us to. Like early FF is SO classic, but can I really read it that often? Until we get a little later in and the Galactus, Wakanda, and other stuff kicks in, and the art gets better with Sinnott on inks, I can only take so much at a time. Personally I can re-read a Secret Wars much more often. And on the flip side, I would say Spider-Man was magnificent during the original Ditko era, but there was a lot of filler after that well into the 70's. And X-Men was on a whole other level once the team rebooted and you had the Claremont and Cockrum/Byrne runs. For me it's more like Secret Wars was no, say, Days of Future Past. But compared to "pedestrian" 60's/70's Marvel fare which there was plenty? I'm just saying I think the "rose-colored glasses" work both ways. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 20, 2023 10:55:07 GMT -5
I wouldn't have minded Secret Wars nearly as much, despite some gross mischaracterizations, if it had been a stand-alone series that didn't affect the continuity of the rest of the line.
Cei-U!
I summon the big, dumb punch-'em-up!
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Post by berkley on Oct 20, 2023 11:15:53 GMT -5
I was no longer reading Marvel when Secret Wars came out so I missed it but yes, I was in the wrong age group anyway so I probably wouldn't have read it even if I had still been following Marvel. Also, seeing samples of it later on, the artwork didn't attract me, which, had it been more to my liking, might have been something to get me to try it in spite of the concept and my general distaste for Shooter's stuff. I didn't read DC'S Crisis either, since I wasn't interested in DC continuity or their more popular characters, but I might give it a try some day because of the Perez artwork.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 20, 2023 11:16:01 GMT -5
Also, Secret Wars came out (possibly in response to) roughly the same time as DC's Crisis, which was head and shoulders above it in terms of quality.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2023 11:16:57 GMT -5
I wouldn't have minded Secret Wars nearly as much, despite some gross mischaracterizations, if it had been a stand-alone series that didn't affect the continuity of the rest of the line. Cei-U! I summon the big, dumb punch-'em-up! Despite my somewhat defense of the series, the Alicia and Ben consequences I'm still bitter about. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2023 11:22:07 GMT -5
Also, Secret Wars came out (possibly in response to) roughly the same time as DC's Crisis, which was head and shoulders above it in terms of quality. Putting aside the consequences of Crisis, in terms of the series itself, I loved the art. But none of the story sticks with me other than some Monitor/Anti-Monitor thing, lots of characters showing up and many getting wiped out, and Flash and Supergirl dying. I don't know, did it really have a story beyond that other than setting the stage for continuity resetting and reboots? I also think Super Powers was a more comparable series to Secret Wars, both were fairly light in tone, released around the same time, and tied to toylines. Crisis was a different thing to me, it was a serious major shake-up of pretty much everything DC by design. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 20, 2023 11:31:19 GMT -5
Also, Secret Wars came out (possibly in response to) roughly the same time as DC's Crisis, which was head and shoulders above it in terms of quality. Putting aside the consequences of Crisis, in terms of the series itself, I loved the art. But none of the story sticks with me other than some Monitor/Anti-Monitor thing, lots of characters showing up and many getting wiped out, and Flash and Supergirl dying. I don't know, did it really have a story beyond that other than setting the stage for continuity resetting and reboots? I also think Super Powers was a more comparable series to Secret Wars, both were fairly light in tone and tied to toylines. Crisis was a different thing to me, it was a serious major shake-up of pretty much everything DC by design. No, DC was trying to do a comics version of the Iliad and couldn't get it squished into 12 books. And crossover me no crossovers; they were gimmickry plain and simple. |
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 20, 2023 14:22:45 GMT -5
Like early FF is SO classic, but can I really read it that often? Until we get a little later in and the Galactus, Wakanda, and other stuff kicks in, and the art gets better with Sinnott on inks, I can only take so much at a time. Early FF is the raw period, where the characters are not seasoned heroes and the world was not yet overrun with villains out of every crack. That's how I view and enjoy early FF in the pre-Galactus / Wakanda period, so its evolution to that era feels natural to this day. Secret Wars--like so much of Marvel in the 80s--was overblown (as a substitution for "epic") and quite infantile. Of all of the big event miniseries, maxiseries or monthly arcs published in that decade, Secret Wars was one of its most hollow, unnecessary efforts. I imagine you know where I will go with this one; Spider-Man became the greatest representation of the character once Ditko departed (also reflected in sales as TASM overtook the FF as Marvel's top seller). Romita was one of the transformational artists in the medium's history, which elevated Spider-Man to the "must read" character for many years (and of course, Lee's brilliance and Romita's co-plotting, along with other writers played an equal role in its phenomenal success). I've said it before, but Spider-Man becoming that "real" superhero / icon would not not have occurred with Ditko and his numerous creative / ideological eccentricities influencing the title going into the darker late 1960s / early 1970s, particularly for American readers. Spider-Man, Captain America, the FF and the Avengers were never better than that published in the 60s and 70s. |
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 20, 2023 14:33:52 GMT -5
Also, Secret Wars came out (possibly in response to) roughly the same time as DC's Crisis, which was head and shoulders above it in terms of quality. Putting aside the consequences of Crisis, in terms of the series itself, I loved the art. But none of the story sticks with me other than some Monitor/Anti-Monitor thing, lots of characters showing up and many getting wiped out, and Flash and Supergirl dying. I don't know, did it really have a story beyond that other than setting the stage for continuity resetting and reboots? I also think Super Powers was a more comparable series to Secret Wars, both were fairly light in tone, released around the same time, and tied to toylines. Crisis was a different thing to me, it was a serious major shake-up of pretty much everything DC by design. I definitely agree that Super Powers is a more comparable series to Secret Wars. |
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Post by tonebone on Oct 20, 2023 15:33:11 GMT -5
I was looking back through my DC Who's Who omnibus, and it's funny how many updates they issued after the original series... these characters and their histories were being constantly changed and updated... while their histories were being written.
It's actually more confusing than the Pre Crisis DC universe, honestly.
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Post by driver1980 on Oct 23, 2023 7:09:27 GMT -5
The wrestling PPV that was advertised, but never happened:  Long story short: WCW programming was cancelled, and WCW was sold to the WWF, assets, video library, everything, etc. Wrestling fans like myself wonder what that Big Bang might have been like. It hasn’t escaped anyone’s attention that 2025 will mark 40 years since Crisis on Infinite Earths. I am almost certain someone at DC is thinking about another “Crisis”. Personally, I think DC may one day need a “Big Bang”. No Crisis revisiting, no storylines, no Superboy-Prime punching a cosmic wall, just a simple editorial mandate. Original stories will remain in our heads and as back issues, but DC reboots itself entirely. Nothing other than an editorial mandate. Proving that I would want to eat my cake and then still have it too, that would not mean renumbering the likes of Action Comics. That would seem wrong, after so many milestones. In fact, why renumber anything? It’s not a law of the universe that a reboot has to eradicate numbering. When the movie Halloween: H20 - the seventh in the series - was released, it was a soft reboot of sorts, but it didn’t need to call itself “Halloween III” or anything (I believe it was set after the second movie). Bad comparison, I know, but reboots shouldn’t necessarily mean renumbering, in my opinion. So, yes, I’d rather see an editorial mandate and a simple reboot rather than revisiting Crisis in any form. Pipe dream, I know. As for Marvel, I don’t know what they could do in such a scenario. |
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