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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 23, 2023 11:07:42 GMT -5
Putting aside the consequences of Crisis, in terms of the series itself, I loved the art. But none of the story sticks with me other than some Monitor/Anti-Monitor thing, lots of characters showing up and many getting wiped out, and Flash and Supergirl dying. I don't know, did it really have a story beyond that other than setting the stage for continuity resetting and reboots? I concede that in retrospect it's aged badly. But reading it when it came out, it felt like the culmination of decades of storylines, and with characters like Supergirl and the Flash dying it felt like a big deal. I was mainly reading indie comics by that point but I was enthralled by Crisis purely for the vast scope and the sense that anything could happed. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2023 11:13:37 GMT -5
Putting aside the consequences of Crisis, in terms of the series itself, I loved the art. But none of the story sticks with me other than some Monitor/Anti-Monitor thing, lots of characters showing up and many getting wiped out, and Flash and Supergirl dying. I don't know, did it really have a story beyond that other than setting the stage for continuity resetting and reboots? I concede that in retrospect it's aged badly. But reading it when it came out, it felt like the culmination of decades of storylines, and with characters like Supergirl and the Flash dying it felt like a big deal. I was mainly reading indie comics by that point but I was enthralled by Crisis purely for the vast scope and the sense that anything could happed. Totally fair, I appreciate that counter perspective! |
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Post by driver1980 on May 30, 2024 8:48:16 GMT -5
Were there any unresolved plot threads and loose ends from the pre-Crisis multiverse that were never fully addressed or concluded in post-Crisis continuity?
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Post by zaku on Jun 1, 2024 3:57:25 GMT -5
Were there any unresolved plot threads and loose ends from the pre-Crisis multiverse that were never fully addressed or concluded in post-Crisis continuity? A lot of them I suppose!!! For example, I remember that during the late pre-Crisis period Perry White was suffering from some form of dementia, but it was presented as a mystery. Obviously with the reboot there was no conclusion to this story. |
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Post by nairb73 on Jun 30, 2024 14:43:26 GMT -5
Were there any unresolved plot threads and loose ends from the pre-Crisis multiverse that were never fully addressed or concluded in post-Crisis continuity? A lot of them I suppose!!! For example, I remember that during the late pre-Crisis period Perry White was suffering from some form of dementia, but it was presented as a mystery. Obviously with the reboot there was no conclusion to this story. World's Finest Comics, in its last few years, was very much 'in its own world', ignoring the other 'Super-Bat-titles'. This meant that, in 1985, Bruce Wayne's casual dating of a Gotham City TV news reporter was abruptly dropped so that Supes and Bats could 'split up' in the last issue. |
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Post by zaku on Jul 1, 2024 6:43:57 GMT -5
A lot of them I suppose!!! For example, I remember that during the late pre-Crisis period Perry White was suffering from some form of dementia, but it was presented as a mystery. Obviously with the reboot there was no conclusion to this story. World's Finest Comics, in its last few years, was very much 'in its own world', ignoring the other 'Super-Bat-titles'. This meant that, in 1985, Bruce Wayne's casual dating of a Gotham City TV news reporter was abruptly dropped so that Supes and Bats could 'split up' in the last issue. I thought about it a bit and I think that the only characters who may have had problems with suspended plots are: 1) Superman (because he had a total reboot) 2) Some Earth-2 characters (because deleted by Crisis). For Batman, I believe that a few issues before Crisis had already made a "clean sweep" (I kindly ask shaxper for confirmation). Wonder Woman, from what I can read online, there were no particular unresolved plots. For everyone else: sometimes it's interesting how for many characters Crisis has changed practically absolutely nothing. For example, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, and Atom continued their adventures as if nothing had happened. Yes, part of their continuity was retroactively changed, but honestly I can't think of any egregious cases of plots left unresolved by Crisis. I ask those with more knowledge than me! |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 1, 2024 7:30:22 GMT -5
World's Finest Comics, in its last few years, was very much 'in its own world', ignoring the other 'Super-Bat-titles'. This meant that, in 1985, Bruce Wayne's casual dating of a Gotham City TV news reporter was abruptly dropped so that Supes and Bats could 'split up' in the last issue. I thought about it a bit and I think that the only characters who may have had problems with suspended plots are: 1) Superman (because he had a total reboot) 2) Some Earth-2 characters (because deleted by Crisis). For Batman, I believe that a few issues before Crisis had already made a "clean sweep" (I kindly ask shaxper for confirmation). Batman #392. It was later undone and quietly returned to its previous continuity before clearly implying another reset was coming next issue at the end of Batman #400, and then Batman #404 and #408 both reset the continuity again, all while Mike W. Barr's Detective Comics run still featured a Pre-Crisis Catwoman. We don't really get a consistent Post-Crisis Batman continuity until Batman #426 (A Death in The Family) and then only because the storyline was a big enough deal that it couldn't be dismissed, requiring ensuing writers to begin maintaining a sense of continuity. |
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Post by nairb73 on Jul 4, 2024 18:47:57 GMT -5
And as far as Superman was concerned,there were no 'suspended storylines', only the following subplots that disapeared(in addition to the Perry White Alzheimers story):
Superman and Lois had broken up in a 1983 storyline,and Lois had only recently returned from a stretch of overseas assignments.
Jimmy Olsen and Lucy Lane became engaged,and Lana Lang revealed that, she had lost a husband and a child(both murdered by a terror group in Italy, during the long stretch that Lana had been absent from the Superman titles, prior to her return to Metropolis during Martin Pasko's writing stint, in 1977.
(The Jimmy and Lana stuff came from Mindy Newell's Lois Lane mini-series, scheduled for 1984, but,due to those developments, postponed until the very end of 'pre-Byrne' stories(two issues that went on sale the same months as Alan Moore's 'farewell'stories).
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Post by swansong on Jul 5, 2024 3:51:10 GMT -5
In the last two years or so of pre-Crisis Superman, they only published stories that had been somewhere in the drawer and did not care about continuity. A lot of these issues were just total crap, but for example, Maggin wrote some of his best stories during that time. It's really sad that the Crisis was effectively also the end of Maggin's comics career. Later, he was an editor at some title, and rumor has it he got fired because he inserted a reference to Superman robots. I don't know, lol. When he was just coming into his own, his ideas for Superman were never really accepted by other writers. Bates's Luthor and his Luthor are basically two different persons. Maggin set up a plot thread of Luthor becoming a good guy and founding a company—LexCorp—but DC went with the mundane Byrne-Man instead.
In the early '80s, there had been some attempts to modernize Superman anyway, with Wolfman's stories, the new Brainiac, new Luthor, and stuff like the Phantom Zone mini-series, which was very eerie and dark for pre-Crisis Superman. But continuity-wise and editorially, there was no real coordination. Perhaps Julie Schwartz was too old-school by that point and out of touch with modern comics. Many Superman comics released in 1983 could have also been released in 1973.
And keep in mind, DC Comics Present, World's Finest... not really connected to the main comic lines. Ambush Bug was appearing a lot in the last pre-crisis issues, IIRC.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jul 5, 2024 12:10:26 GMT -5
In the early '80s, there had been some attempts to modernize Superman anyway, with Wolfman's stories, the new Brainiac, new Luthor, and stuff like the Phantom Zone mini-series, which was very eerie and dark for pre-Crisis Superman. But continuity-wise and editorially, there was no real coordination. Perhaps Julie Schwartz was too old-school by that point and out of touch with modern comics. Many Superman comics released in 1983 could have also been released in 1973. Mid-80s Superman comics gave one a very weird, disjunctive feeling, as one got a sense sometimes that they were trying for a more serious, contemporary tone, but ... the Superman Emergency Squad were still in-continuity, yanno? |
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Post by nairb73 on Jul 5, 2024 18:17:09 GMT -5
My 'comics childhood' began with 'Superman vs. Muhammad Ali', and I was an avid reader through '86(for whatever reason, my neighborhood store dropped DC comics for about a year, so I mostly moved on from DC after that).
The 1978 Superman stories by Marty Pasko remain among my favorites. Pasko was focused on characterization, and 'super villains other than Luthor and Brainiac'(even treating Bizarro as a villain, a concept Bates ignored in his next appearance), while Bates was more into 'Superman meets the trippy aliens of the month, unless Luthor's in it'.
Maggin was out of the picture by then; he returned in 1982, with what I thought were uneven results.
I think I preferred Superman defending Earth from aliens, while Maggin seemed to like taking 'deep dive sci fi' that could have worked for 'Star Trek', and shoehorning Superman into it. This is why I was a bit underwhelmed by Superman # 400,and the DCCP annuals(and earlier novel) featuring Kristen (Superwoman) Wells.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 5, 2024 22:27:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure how many of these can be considered unresolved threads so much as just ideas with unrealized potential, but...
- The Flash. Had he not been killed off in Crisis it's safe to say he would have retained some sort of presence in the DC Universe even with his title having been cancelled. Later writers would have not only had to have addressed the fact that Barry Allen had been given a new face after his old one had been obliterated by Big Sir during his Trial storyline but was living with Iris Allen in the future. Of course, I don't actually know whether Bates was adding these developments because he knew the title was ending or the character was - if it were the latter, then it's entirely possible that this explains the changes which he knew would never have to be resolved.
- Batman. Nocturna was a love interest who discovered Batman's identity, adopted Jason Todd, and then appeared to have been killed in a hot-air balloon accident though no body was found. I can't imagine that she wouldn't have returned had Doug Moench not been taken off the titles after Crisis. Speaking of the second Robin, it's strange that Crisis gave us a tougher, more cynical Jason Todd, when the pre-Crisis "Dick Grayson clone" had much more baggage - parents brutally murdered by Killer Croc when Bruce Wayne pressured them into working undercover on his behalf, plus an adoptive mother who was using him as a pawn to get at Batman. Croc was a major villain when introduced - the crime boss of Gotham regarded as a threat to not only Batman but his Rogue's Gallery as well - and it seems likely that he have retained his high ranking amongst Batman's enemies (pretty much The Bane of the Bronze Age) had Crisis not hit. Hard to imagine that his recurring presence wouldn't have meant repeated references to what happened to Jason's parents which in turn would have resulted in... well, some changes to the Jason Todd character. What those changes would have been, it's hard to say, but it's entirely possible that the Crisis revamp meant that those inevitable developments would never come to pass.
- Superman. I guess Jimmy Olsen had aged out of the boy reporter role he had filled for so long which is why the hip, young Justin Moore was added to the ranks. I think the character only made about half a dozen appearances over a two year period and never really took off, but it does seem as DC felt that The Daily Planet needed a cub reporter before Crisis gave that job back to Jimmy.
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Post by Chris on Jul 6, 2024 0:18:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure how many of these can be considered unresolved threads so much as just ideas with unrealized potential, but... - The Flash. Had he not been killed off in Crisis it's safe to say he would have retained some sort of presence in the DC Universe even with his title having been cancelled. Later writers would have not only had to have addressed the fact that Barry Allen had been given a new face after his old one had been obliterated by Big Sir during his Trial storyline but was living with Iris Allen in the future. Of course, I don't actually know whether Bates was adding these developments because he knew the title was ending or the character was - if it were the latter, then it's entirely possible that this explains the changes which he knew would never have to be resolved. I really need to get back to my Flash review thread. I dropped it due to too much stuff going on to focus on it, but it's been a long time and I got some free time now. |
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Post by nairb73 on Jul 6, 2024 3:02:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure how many of these can be considered unresolved threads so much as just ideas with unrealized potential, but... - The Flash. Had he not been killed off in Crisis it's safe to say he would have retained some sort of presence in the DC Universe even with his title having been cancelled. Later writers would have not only had to have addressed the fact that Barry Allen had been given a new face after his old one had been obliterated by Big Sir during his Trial storyline but was living with Iris Allen in the future. Of course, I don't actually know whether Bates was adding these developments because he knew the title was ending or the character was - if it were the latter, then it's entirely possible that this explains the changes which he knew would never have to be resolved. - Batman. Nocturna was a love interest who discovered Batman's identity, adopted Jason Todd, and then appeared to have been killed in a hot-air balloon accident though no body was found. I can't imagine that she wouldn't have returned had Doug Moench not been taken off the titles after Crisis. Speaking of the second Robin, it's strange that Crisis gave us a tougher, more cynical Jason Todd, when the pre-Crisis "Dick Grayson clone" had much more baggage - parents brutally murdered by Killer Croc when Bruce Wayne pressured them into working undercover on his behalf, plus an adoptive mother who was using him as a pawn to get at Batman. Croc was a major villain when introduced - the crime boss of Gotham regarded as a threat to not only Batman but his Rogue's Gallery as well - and it seems likely that he have retained his high ranking amongst Batman's enemies (pretty much The Bane of the Bronze Age) had Crisis not hit. Hard to imagine that his recurring presence wouldn't have meant repeated references to what happened to Jason's parents which in turn would have resulted in... well, some changes to the Jason Todd character. What those changes would have been, it's hard to say, but it's entirely possible that the Crisis revamp meant that those inevitable developments would never come to pass. - Superman. I guess Jimmy Olsen had aged out of the boy reporter role he had filled for so long which is why the hip, young Justin Moore was added to the ranks. I think the character only made about half a dozen appearances over a two year period and never really took off, but it does seem as DC felt that The Daily Planet needed a cub reporter before Crisis gave that job back to Jimmy. Flash: Yes, Bates was told that the character would die, along with the book(well, one month apart). I only really read THE FLASH 'post-Iris', but I was vaguely aware that they'd somehow come up with the 'Iris came from the 30th Century' thing years before. In any event, the MANY characters DC put in that century, and its 'alternate timelines' all had to go. Batman-I preferred 'original' Jason, but in hindsight, he wasn't 'original', after all; he was another Dick Grayson. Still better than the little jerk who stole the Batmobile's hubcaps. If Joker hadn't tried that 'mass murder at the UN' thing, Batman just might have let him slide on the 'crowbarring his sidekick' thing. Superman-Jimmy hadn't really been a 'cub' since 1970 or so...and Justin Moore was another attempt to add to the supporting cast, after a similar 'headstrong young man' named Percy Bratten had been seen in Jimmy's stories in the mid-70s, initially regularly, then very intermittently, then forgotten. Justin was likewise forgettable(I vaguely remember him having some typically-badly-written crush on Lana, and getting himself involved in the occasional 'triangle' of Superman,Lana, and that cheesy Sean Connery rip-off, Vartox). |
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Post by jtrw2024 on Jul 6, 2024 7:21:10 GMT -5
I still find it interesting that even though "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" is considered the final story of the Pre-crisis Superman, it actually references events from "Crisis on Infinite Earths", like Supergirl's death, making this actually a Post-Crisis story. Once we get into the actual Post-Crisis era of course the Crisis would continue to get referenced. There are of course series where the Crisis is a major factor such as Wally West's Flash series which would often reference Barry's death, but even the Post-Crisis Superman would make comments about his own participation in these events. That would mean that the earlier Post-Crisis Superman adventures such as "The Man of Steel" mini-series actually take place before Crisis.
So we've got a Post-Crisis story of the Pre-Crisis Superman, and Pre-Crisis stories of the Post-Crisis Superman! Does that mean there was a Post-Crisis Crisis on Infinite Earths which featured Post-Crisis Superman and differed from the actual published stories? Maybe DC is saving this for their 100th anniversary big-event!
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