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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 22, 2015 13:35:49 GMT -5
Yet they had to have the Crisis on Infinite Earths because the little kiddies were confused by Earth-1 and Earth-2.
"There's TWO Earths? And both of them have a Superman but only one has Dr. Fate? That's too confusing! My head go all esplodey! I'm gonna read Marvel only from now on!" said no kid ever.
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Post by Pharozonk on Dec 22, 2015 13:38:31 GMT -5
My vote goes toward Superman in the Post-Crisis Era since I have lots of those issues and can actually contribute to the discussion.  |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 22, 2015 13:38:34 GMT -5
Right, and now we have Two Supermen on ONE Earth, and that's a great idea, but I digress.
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 22, 2015 13:40:13 GMT -5
Right, and now we have Two Supermen on ONE Earth, and that's a great idea, but I digress. Remember when there were FOUR Supermen? |
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Post by tingramretro on Dec 22, 2015 13:50:26 GMT -5
Actually, the majority of pre-Crisis continuity was retained, at least initially; most of DC's then ongoing books, including JLA, LSH, Infinity Inc, Green Lantern, Firestorm and Blue Devil, simply continued straight through with their continuity unbroken. There were changes to the history of certain characters, but All-Star Squadron and Infinity Inc, in particular, actually dealt with those changes in-continuity, with some characters being totally aware of them. The only really major exceptions were Wonder Woman (which was cancelled) and the Superman and Batman titles (which were rebooted within months of the Crisis ending). The principal difference between Crisis and Flashpoint is that in the former, the rule of thumb was "it all still happened, unless we specify that it didn't" whereas in the latter, it seems to be "none of it happened, unless we specify that it did". A subtle but important distinction. I think it's safer to say that there was no general trend across the company that adequately describes how the Pre-Crisis/Post-Crisis continuity was handled. After all, Wonder Woman had a clear reset while Wonder Girl hung around, only to get her origin retconned years later; Batman's Pre-Crisis continuity went almost completely out the window, but Nightwing hung around without any interruption to his continuity; Superman got a clear reset, and yet there were minor acknowledgements of past continuity that bled through (including his first run-in with Booster Gold). Most of the series I've followed chose clearly to NOT align with pre-Crisis continuity, but those are just the ones I've read. Interesting. Which were the series you were reading at the time? I think I was reading most of the DC line back then (the major exception being the Titans, which I think I'd given up on at that time) but the overwhelming impression I got was that as much as possible was retained. Even where it made no real sense, as in the case of the two Hawkmen (it wasn't until the Hawkworld reboot more than three years later than anyone bothered to address the question of why two separate but more or less identical characters with the same civilian identity had both existed in the new continuity, one on the JLA and one on the JSA). Captain Marvel ewas another case of the past continuity being abandoned, of course, but we didn't find that out until the 1987 limited series (and later, that got retconned out, too). |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 22, 2015 13:53:46 GMT -5
Interesting. Which were the series you were reading at the time? Well, the ones I cited in that previous post -- Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman mostly. Obviously the New Teen Titans made no attempt to reset their continuity; I was reading them too. |
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Dec 22, 2015 13:56:04 GMT -5
MOKF because I just grabbed issue #50 the other day and having never read any, I always appreciate other people's insight and opinions before I jump into a new series.
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Post by tingramretro on Dec 22, 2015 14:07:31 GMT -5
Interesting. Which were the series you were reading at the time? Well, the ones I cited in that previous post -- Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman mostly. Obviously the New Teen Titans made no attempt to reset their continuity; I was reading them too. Ah. While I was reading the Superman and Batman books and was well aware of the resets, I was always more into the "lesser" books, like the ones I mentioned earlier (and in particular Roy Thomas's little corner of the DCU) and most of those had no resets. Outsiders was another one; the reset to Batman continuity had no impact on their past continuity at all. Aside from Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman and their various supporting casts, and the changes to elements of Golden Age continuity necessitated by the removal of the Golden Age Superman, Batman and Robin, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow and Speedy, the only other characters I can think of that were totally reset after the Crisis were Captain Marvel and Captain Atom, and both of those last two were changes made over a year later; the original versions both featured in History of the DC Universe and, in the case of Captain Atom, DC Comics Presents post-Crisis. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 22, 2015 14:29:43 GMT -5
Well, the ones I cited in that previous post -- Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman mostly. Obviously the New Teen Titans made no attempt to reset their continuity; I was reading them too. Ah. While I was reading the Superman and Batman books and was well aware of the resets, I was always more into the "lesser" books, like the ones I mentioned earlier (and in particular Roy Thomas's little corner of the DCU) and most of those had no resets. Outsiders was another one; the reset to Batman continuity had no impact on their past continuity at all. Aside from Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman and their various supporting casts, and the changes to elements of Golden Age continuity necessitated by the removal of the Golden Age Superman, Batman and Robin, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow and Speedy, the only other characters I can think of that were totally reset after the Crisis were Captain Marvel and Captain Atom, and both of those last two were changes made over a year later; the original versions both featured in History of the DC Universe and, in the case of Captain Atom, DC Comics Presents post-Crisis. I don't disagree with any of this, but I interpret it differently. What that says to me was that there was no broad company-wide approach to the reset. It was done differently in different places. |
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Post by tingramretro on Dec 22, 2015 15:05:02 GMT -5
Ah. While I was reading the Superman and Batman books and was well aware of the resets, I was always more into the "lesser" books, like the ones I mentioned earlier (and in particular Roy Thomas's little corner of the DCU) and most of those had no resets. Outsiders was another one; the reset to Batman continuity had no impact on their past continuity at all. Aside from Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman and their various supporting casts, and the changes to elements of Golden Age continuity necessitated by the removal of the Golden Age Superman, Batman and Robin, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow and Speedy, the only other characters I can think of that were totally reset after the Crisis were Captain Marvel and Captain Atom, and both of those last two were changes made over a year later; the original versions both featured in History of the DC Universe and, in the case of Captain Atom, DC Comics Presents post-Crisis. I don't disagree with any of this, but I interpret it differently. What that says to me was that there was no broad company-wide approach to the reset. It was done differently in different places. Sure, I'd agree with that-but the majority of the ongoing books, outside the ones featuring the big three, tried as much as possible not to abandon past continuity. Secret Origins was possibly the best example, most of the stories told in its 50 issue run between 1986 and 1990 stuck fairly closely to what had been established pre-Crisis. The biggest deviations were the introduction of a WWII era Fury and the revised origin of Power Girl (which still built on her established history of having believed she was the cousin of Superman-but now, she'd incorrectly believed she was the cousin of the younger Superman). |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 22, 2015 15:14:22 GMT -5
I don't disagree with any of this, but I interpret it differently. What that says to me was that there was no broad company-wide approach to the reset. It was done differently in different places. Sure, I'd agree with that-but the majority of the ongoing books, outside the ones featuring the big three, tried as much as possible not to abandon past continuity. And yet titles like Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and Justice League accounted for a larger percentage of sales and a larger percentage of public perception than the others, so it's not as simple as saying most of them were, but only those four weren't. It's been years since I read them, so I have almost no memory, but weren't there issues that depicted both the Pre and Post Crisis origins for key heroes? I distinctly recall having one that told only the Golden Age origin of Batman, for example. |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Dec 22, 2015 15:16:28 GMT -5
I voted for Nick Fury, as I've already read them all (well, almost all - missing a few SHIELD issues) and am curious what you think.
I don't want you to do MOKF yet because I am still putting together a run, so I won't be reading your thread until I've read the series since I don't want spoilers, and it might be another 2 years before I've finished my set.
Superman or Batman would be fine since I have no intention of ever reading those; it doesn't matter to me if there are spoilers so I read your reviews to see what you have to say.
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Post by realjla on Dec 22, 2015 15:36:18 GMT -5
Oh, absolutely. I feel a bit like an expert on that now, what with both the Superman and Batman review threads. But it sounds like the Giffen/Dematteis #1 is the closest thing to a clean break we get, so I think I'll probably start there after all if I do this thing. Sorry, Hoosier  Don't sweat it, shax. JLD is almost universally reviled. (And rightfully so, if I'm honest.) But I liked it anyway. It had a lot of potential that was mostly squandered, with a lot of great art and a few above-average storylines. Some comic-book runs are must-read and some are ... not quite so essential. I love The Secret Society of Super-Villains but I only recommend it to people who like mid-1970s Bronze Age Insanity. JLD isn't even as good as SSOSV. Justice League Detroit, actually IN Detroit, was great. Justice League Evicted From Detroit By Grandpa Steel And Gypsy's Hamster Is An Alien And John Jones Suddenly Returns And Those Issues Suck And They'reHiding In The 'Old Old' Headquarters Until Batman Returns And Then Leaves Ten Minutes Later After They Got Rid Of Crazy Despero And Then Conway Quits And DeMatteis Writes That Weird Stuff With Zatanna And Kills Two Characters But Not Gypsy And One Day He Wakes Up And It's All Bwah Ha Ha...not so much. |
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Post by tingramretro on Dec 22, 2015 15:37:33 GMT -5
Sure, I'd agree with that-but the majority of the ongoing books, outside the ones featuring the big three, tried as much as possible not to abandon past continuity. And yet titles like Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and Justice League accounted for a larger percentage of sales and a larger percentage of public perception than the others, so it's not as simple as saying most of them were, but only those four weren't. It's been years since I read them, so I have almost no memory, but weren't there issues that depicted both the Pre and Post Crisis origins for key heroes? I distinctly recall having one that told only the Golden Age origin of Batman, for example. Public perception and sales, maybe, but I'm talking about actual numbers of books and characters; Batman may have sold more copies than Firestorm, Green Lantern, Outsiders and Infinity Inc combined, but he's still in the minority, there. And as previously mentioned, aside from a couple of minor retcons relating to specific characters (Martian Manhunter now being the last Martian, and Wonder Woman having been replaced as a founder by Black Canary) the JLA's continuity was retained pretty much intact. We didn't even get that revised JLA origin until late 1988. Secret Origins #6, incidentally, retold the origin of the Golden Age Batman, while #1 retold the Golden Age origin of Superman and #3 was Captain Marvel, but those three were anomalies and treated as such; they actually specified that these characters, or Superman and Batman at least, were no longer in existence (I think they only did those stories because Roy Thomas insisted). They never revisited either character in later issues. They never touched on the post-Crisis origins of any of the big three in that title. In fact, they never touched any version of Wonder Woman. And they certainly never told two versions of any character's history. The book's mission was basically to build a coherent post Crisis DCU. It's actually one of my favourite eighties DC titles, I dip into it pretty regularly. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 16:21:23 GMT -5
Edit: oops CB (and others) beat me to it, teach me to reply before reading the rest of the thread. Sorry. Just to be technical-The Giffen/DeMatteis League started post-Legends (they made their debut in Legends #5 or 6 iirc)and not immediately following Crisis or as a result of Crisis. So the remnants of the Detroit League (Batman had returned to lead it by then I believe)was the post Crisis League and the one that took part in the events of Crisis. The 4 part end of the Justice League arc (or mini-series within a series as it was being called in the day) left the DCU without a Justice League for a few months real time (and the lack of a League was a plot point in Legends). This evolution of hte LEague was also how it was depicted in the Wolfman/Perez History of the DCU mini the defined the post-Crisis DCU f memory serves, so that Detroit League is very much the post-Crisis League. That said, if you wanted to just do a thread featuring the DeMatteis/Giffen incarnation of it, that's cool, just change the intended title for the thread from Post-Crisis to reflect what you actually want to do. It's as easy as knocking out Guy Gardner with one punch  -M |
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