|
|
Post by dupersuper on Dec 25, 2015 3:47:45 GMT -5
I tend to ignore the retcons and just put Hawkworld back during Man of Steel/Batman Year One/JLA Year One/etc. Then explain Fel Ander as just a Thanagarian spy from Invasion! specifically. Head cannon!
|
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Dec 25, 2015 7:49:41 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Dec 25, 2015 7:52:49 GMT -5
Batman was also the de facto leader of the previous incarnation of the League when it ended, he returned sometime around issue 250 and was a member until it ended while only Aquaman and MArtian Manhunter (maybe Zatanna if you count her) of the traditional big Leaguers were there as well. -M You forgot Elongated Man. But then, everybody does... |
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Dec 25, 2015 11:39:33 GMT -5
Shax, go ahead and start you Justice League reviews but please do one thing first.
Review Detective Comics #630!
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 25, 2015 12:35:39 GMT -5
Shax, go ahead and start you Justice League reviews but please do one thing first. Review Detective Comics #630! Hehehe. Soon. Soon! |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2015 14:18:29 GMT -5
I voted for the Bwa-ha-ha era and can't wait to see the reviews!   |
|
|
|
Post by Action Ace on Dec 25, 2015 14:26:49 GMT -5
I tend to ignore the retcons and just put Hawkworld back during Man of Steel/Batman Year One/JLA Year One/etc. Then explain Fel Ander as just a Thanagarian spy from Invasion! specifically. Head cannon! Hawkman went missing after trying to help Flash Gordon in 1980. He hasn't been seen since. |
|
|
|
Post by spoon on Dec 25, 2015 14:35:52 GMT -5
The Giffen/DeMatteis JLI genuinely was not a reboot-it carried on directly from the end of the previous run. Inititially, there were few references to that previous run as this was a new book, but it was made quite clear that this was simply the latest League, and that both Batman and Black Canary (and later several others, when they rejoined during Invasion) had been members of the previous one. Later in the run, they even revisited the Detroit League, with Despero (in the same revised form he'd gained during that run) arriving on Earth again and murdering Steel, who had been on life support somewhere since his apparent death at the hands of Professor Ivo at the end of the previous run. There was no reset for the League. Right, I do understand this, and perhaps I'm being confusing and even confusing myself on this, so let me try again: 1. The Giffen/Dematteis #1 is the closest thing to a reset the JL gets in the Post-Crisis and, from most outward appearances to the casual fan, it was a clear hard reboot point. Whereas the other titles you used as examples previously went pretty much unaltered in the wake of the Crisis, Justice League looked more like what was happening with Superman and Wonder Woman at the time. 2. In actuality, it's a soft (and messy) reboot, more like Batman at the time. Some elements from the past come back and are referenced, but others are retconned out. For example, Wonder Woman was never a member of The League now (at least until Zero Hour revises this, I think?). So while some (or all) of the JL Detroit continuity is eventually acknowledged, the past continuity the Detroit League itself acknowledged is largely out the window. I mean, I haven't reviewed the run yet, and it's been years since I read those first two trades, but this is my understanding of it as of now. It was definitely not a hard reboot. In fact, I think soft reboot is a bit much. "Soft reboot" is an inherently messy term. I tend to think of soft reboot as referring to a revival (typically referring to adaptations, like film adaptations of comics) that chooses neither to contradict nor to refer to the past run/series. It has the flexibility to viewed as continuation or a non-continuation. The Giffen/Dematteis series is really just a convenient jumping-on point that continued the existing continuity but would incorporate retcons on an ad hoc basis as required by the changes in some other series that decided to reboot (e.g., Wonder Woman). Reading JL/JLI back in the day, I never thought it had annihilated the existing Justice League history. I believe there were several references to the existence of League's past history (e.g., the Hawkman anger over the tarnishing of the League's legacy; Guy as the latest, not the first, GL in the League; Wally in JLE, being the latest, not the first, Flash in the League). My recollection was that most series tried to keep doing their thing. Just because WW or Supes upset the apple cart didn't mean other series did, too. They changed past continuity only to the extent they were forced to. So assume a pre-Crisis Justice League adventure that involved WW still happened. If they needed to explain how the adventure took place without the involvement of WW, they'd cross each individual bridge when they came to it. |
|
|
|
Post by dupersuper on Dec 25, 2015 18:41:57 GMT -5
I tend to ignore the retcons and just put Hawkworld back during Man of Steel/Batman Year One/JLA Year One/etc. Then explain Fel Ander as just a Thanagarian spy from Invasion! specifically. Head cannon! Hawkman went missing after trying to help Flash Gordon in 1980. He hasn't been seen since.  |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 25, 2015 22:35:11 GMT -5
The Giffen/Dematteis series is really just a convenient jumping-on point I'm happy to agree to that term. Beyond that, I think we're saying the same thing but taking it in two different directions. We both agree that, if you weren't currently reading Justice League, DC's message was "Hey, this is totally new! Come check it out!!" and, if you were already a fan, some of the continuity was still there, so long as it didn't conflict with anything else happening in the Post-Crisis. Thus I think it makes sense to begin a review thread with the new #1 and not sweat the mess of partial continuity that remains from what came before. |
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Dec 26, 2015 5:21:09 GMT -5
Right, I do understand this, and perhaps I'm being confusing and even confusing myself on this, so let me try again: 1. The Giffen/Dematteis #1 is the closest thing to a reset the JL gets in the Post-Crisis and, from most outward appearances to the casual fan, it was a clear hard reboot point. Whereas the other titles you used as examples previously went pretty much unaltered in the wake of the Crisis, Justice League looked more like what was happening with Superman and Wonder Woman at the time. 2. In actuality, it's a soft (and messy) reboot, more like Batman at the time. Some elements from the past come back and are referenced, but others are retconned out. For example, Wonder Woman was never a member of The League now (at least until Zero Hour revises this, I think?). So while some (or all) of the JL Detroit continuity is eventually acknowledged, the past continuity the Detroit League itself acknowledged is largely out the window. I mean, I haven't reviewed the run yet, and it's been years since I read those first two trades, but this is my understanding of it as of now. It was definitely not a hard reboot. In fact, I think soft reboot is a bit much. "Soft reboot" is an inherently messy term. I tend to think of soft reboot as referring to a revival (typically referring to adaptations, like film adaptations of comics) that chooses neither to contradict nor to refer to the past run/series. It has the flexibility to viewed as continuation or a non-continuation. The Giffen/Dematteis series is really just a convenient jumping-on point that continued the existing continuity but would incorporate retcons on an ad hoc basis as required by the changes in some other series that decided to reboot (e.g., Wonder Woman). Reading JL/JLI back in the day, I never thought it had annihilated the existing Justice League history. I believe there were several references to the existence of League's past history (e.g., the Hawkman anger over the tarnishing of the League's legacy; Guy as the latest, not the first, GL in the League; Wally in JLE, being the latest, not the first, Flash in the League). My recollection was that most series tried to keep doing their thing. Just because WW or Supes upset the apple cart didn't mean other series did, too. They changed past continuity only to the extent they were forced to. So assume a pre-Crisis Justice League adventure that involved WW still happened. If they needed to explain how the adventure took place without the involvement of WW, they'd cross each individual bridge when they came to it. Yes, that's it exactly. Everything that had happened prreviously had still happened, unless they said otherwise-but some things were revealed to have happened slightly differently, where it was necessary. |
|
|
|
Post by Action Ace on Dec 27, 2015 1:25:23 GMT -5
I found my Justice League: A New Beginning tpb. The introduction is by editor Andrew Helfer, not plotter Keith Giffen. It's five pages long, but it gives you really good insight into why this book became what it was, why the humor, why the elimination of "America" and why the heroes were chosen. It also gives us insight into the creators and how they were picked to work on the book. I'd be happy to type it out for everyone. If Shaxper is starting with Legends, I could type it in as the issue reviews come out. Or I could add parts in as we go through the early issues of the series proper. Or I could keep my big mouth shut...  Whatever works best. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2015 2:05:40 GMT -5
I found my Justice League: A New Beginning tpb. The introduction is by editor Andrew Helfer, not plotter Keith Giffen. It's five pages long, but it gives you really good insight into why this book became what it was, why the humor, why the elimination of "America" and why the heroes were chosen. It also gives us insight into the creators and how they were picked to work on the book. I'd be happy to type it out for everyone. If Shaxper is starting with Legends, I could type it in as the issue reviews come out. Or I could add parts in as we go through the early issues of the series proper. Or I could keep my big mouth shut... Whatever works best. I used to have that trade and vaguely remember the intro's gist. I'd be interested in seeing it again if others are too (even a bullet point list or a scan of it rather than having to type out the whole blasted thing), but it's not necessary if no one else is interested. -M |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 27, 2015 9:17:21 GMT -5
I found my Justice League: A New Beginning tpb. The introduction is by editor Andrew Helfer, not plotter Keith Giffen. It's five pages long, but it gives you really good insight into why this book became what it was, why the humor, why the elimination of "America" and why the heroes were chosen. It also gives us insight into the creators and how they were picked to work on the book. I'd be happy to type it out for everyone. If Shaxper is starting with Legends, I could type it in as the issue reviews come out. Or I could add parts in as we go through the early issues of the series proper. Or I could keep my big mouth shut... Whatever works best. I would LOVE to see that, if you're up for it. Couldn't you just scan it and save yourself a lot of work? My old TPB had the Giffen intro which didn't provide all that much insight. |
|
|
|
Post by Action Ace on Dec 27, 2015 19:34:55 GMT -5
I found my Justice League: A New Beginning tpb. The introduction is by editor Andrew Helfer, not plotter Keith Giffen. It's five pages long, but it gives you really good insight into why this book became what it was, why the humor, why the elimination of "America" and why the heroes were chosen. It also gives us insight into the creators and how they were picked to work on the book. I'd be happy to type it out for everyone. If Shaxper is starting with Legends, I could type it in as the issue reviews come out. Or I could add parts in as we go through the early issues of the series proper. Or I could keep my big mouth shut... Whatever works best. I would LOVE to see that, if you're up for it. Couldn't you just scan it and save yourself a lot of work? My old TPB had the Giffen intro which didn't provide all that much insight. Even if I had a scanner (or anything else that could make a digital picture), I still would have no idea how to post it. It does break down into manageable chunks though, so I don't have to do it all at once. Part I: The origin and who was (and wasn't) at home Part II: The formula Part III: Curveball #1: Justice League of.......... Part IV: Curveball #2: The humor Part V: The creators (which can be done one at a time) |
|
Whatever works best.