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Post by thwhtguardian on Mar 18, 2021 18:38:51 GMT -5
Most people have subscriptions and don't even know it, if you get HBO through your cable provider you also get HBO Max at no charge. I have "bare bones" cable service. Mostly because I can't get all the broadcast channels with an antenna. So I have the cheapest package and Netflix and Disney +. Not a bad way to go, I would have done similar but in order to get the sox games I need NESSN, and my wife( and I admit I as well) loves the Food Network and in order to get those channels you got HBO as well. I only recently found out that meant I got Max as well for "free", and I wouldn't have paid for it on its own otherwise. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2021 17:28:15 GMT -5
Ok. . no spoilers (at all - not even characters that have been given away as being in this). But having sat with it for a little bit:
Zack Snyder's Justice League is *incredible*
the Theatrical release was a C- film. This? this is a SOLID A
(and if you're a comic fan, with some familiarity of the DC Universe? A+).
I know some viewers have commented there's a little filler in here, but I didn't think any of it was filler. The ~4 hour run time just flies by.
This is NOT anything even close to the theatrical release - perhaps 20% (or 18%) is footage we've seen. . the rest is all a brand new film. A new film that really fills in tons of character info/motivations/and triumphs.
Clearly the two that benefit most are the Flash & Cyborg, but really all the characters benefit from more "stuff" that just wasn't in the original film.
I really hope this does so well, that WB/DC greenlight the follow-ups, as I REALLY wanna see what comes next.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Mar 20, 2021 8:53:04 GMT -5
{My Thoughts}
Definitely an upgrade. Still not a fan of the film, but at least it's at average level. I guess I really hadn't seen a Zack Snyder film in a long time, because I just am not a fan of his directing style. Or rather, my tolerance for it has plummeted the more time has gone by. The movie largely feels like a 4 hour Linkin Park music video. I think he has a lot of good ideas, but focuses way too much on grandiose visuals/getting caught up in a "moment" than actually telling a good story first and foremost. Almost like reading a comic and having a splash page or pin-up every 3 pages.
At least Steppenwolf was cool. Ezra Miller as Barry Allen doesn't work at all for me. Still think the CGI on Cyborg looks awful. Some of the other scenes like the dream sequence was awkwardly placed, and there is just way too many jumping around with multiple characters we don't have time to be invested in, even with 4 hours.
Still would have liked it DC just cooled their jets, and instead of rushing to make a JL film, invested in only Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman solo films first. Then have a team up with just the big three. Call it "World's Finest" or something. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
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Post by shaxper on Mar 20, 2021 9:31:12 GMT -5
I'm waiting in the wings for more people to weigh in. I so desperately want to be excited to see this film, but Snyder's Superman film broke my heart and made me cautious about trying any more DC films unless they received absolutely rave reviews from true comic geeks that know and care about the source material.
Bert's take gives me hope, but I want to hear it from some other folks as well.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Mar 20, 2021 12:57:48 GMT -5
I'm about half way through now and while there are some really solid new moments added in, like the Flash saving Iris, I don't know if it's really a better movie for all of that. Two hours is a long time and you really should be able to tell a complete and cohesive story in that time...and yet plot-wise the movie has pretty much just begun. Sure, had this vision been released on its own in the first place they could have released Justice League Part One and then released Part Two the following year after all they've already done that with films like Harry Potter, Twilight, the Hunger Games and more recently with Avengers Infinity War and End Game but even that wouldn't have been very satisfying as there's no climactic midpoint here that would make the first part of Justice League feel like a movie in its own right which was one of the big draw backs of making the Hobbit into three parts.
Maybe I'll feel differently when I get the time to finish watching this tomorrow, but as of right now the Snyder cut kind of makes me appreciate the Whedon version a tiny bit more. I still wouldn't say the theatrical cut was all that great, but given the material here I think it's a testament to his film making skills that he was able to make a workable theatrical film at all.
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Post by Randle-El on Mar 20, 2021 13:05:32 GMT -5
I haven't seen it, but based on reactions I've read, my sense is that if you weren't a fan of Snyder's DCEU films in the first place, the new cut of JL is not going to change your mind. It's more of the same, but without the obvious glaring inconsistencies from having two directors with completely different visions for the film.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2021 13:44:28 GMT -5
I'm about half way through now and while there are some really solid new moments added in, like the Flash saving Iris, I don't know if it's really a better movie for all of that. Two hours is a long time and you really should be able to tell a complete and cohesive story in that time...and yet plot-wise the movie has pretty much just begun. Sure, had this vision been released on its own in the first place they could have released Justice League Part One and then released Part Two the following year after all they've already done that with films like Harry Potter, Twilight, the Hunger Games and more recently with Avengers Infinity War and End Game but even that wouldn't have been very satisfying as there's no climactic midpoint here that would make the first part of Justice League feel like a movie in its own right which was one of the big draw backs of making the Hobbit into three parts. Maybe I'll feel differently when I get the time to finish watching this tomorrow, but as of right now the Snyder cut kind of makes me appreciate the Whedon version a tiny bit more. I still wouldn't say the theatrical cut was all that great, but given the material here I think it's a testament to his film making skills that he was able to make a workable theatrical film at all. i found the Snyder cut infinately better.
and just wait until act 3. it's insanely better than what Whedon put out. removing that idiotic subplot with the escaping Russian family easily makes for a much more exciting final battle (and the final battle? spectaular)
even if (*minor*)
the "sky surfing" Aquaman scene is still there tho |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Mar 20, 2021 14:39:41 GMT -5
I'm about half way through now and while there are some really solid new moments added in, like the Flash saving Iris, I don't know if it's really a better movie for all of that. Two hours is a long time and you really should be able to tell a complete and cohesive story in that time...and yet plot-wise the movie has pretty much just begun. Sure, had this vision been released on its own in the first place they could have released Justice League Part One and then released Part Two the following year after all they've already done that with films like Harry Potter, Twilight, the Hunger Games and more recently with Avengers Infinity War and End Game but even that wouldn't have been very satisfying as there's no climactic midpoint here that would make the first part of Justice League feel like a movie in its own right which was one of the big draw backs of making the Hobbit into three parts. Maybe I'll feel differently when I get the time to finish watching this tomorrow, but as of right now the Snyder cut kind of makes me appreciate the Whedon version a tiny bit more. I still wouldn't say the theatrical cut was all that great, but given the material here I think it's a testament to his film making skills that he was able to make a workable theatrical film at all. i found the Snyder cut infinately better.
and just wait until act 3. it's insanely better than what Whedon put out. removing that idiotic subplot with the escaping Russian family easily makes for a much more exciting final battle (and the final battle? spectaular)
even if (*minor*)
the "sky surfing" Aquaman scene is still there tho There are parts that are definitely better...but as a whole? I just can't see it. The added depth brought to Cyborg? Fantastic. But they belong in a Cyborg movie. And it's the same with the Flash scenes, I absolutely love them...but they don't advance the story of the Justice League movie much at all but would no doubt fit perfectly well in a Flash movie. If you took both those parts out, built separate movies around them and gave the run time they occupied in the Justice League film to developing the threat and story of Steppenwolf and Darkseid then I think you could have had a great film but with out that? Even if there are excellent individual scenes that play much better here than in the theatrical cut I don't think you can get an actual better film as added scenes aren't really going to fix the issues that plagued the original. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2021 17:45:43 GMT -5
^ I'd honestly post one scene from the final battle, that I don't see how wouldn't convince anyone to see this. but I'll not, at least for a day or so more, to avoid spoilers (even if that image is out there all over the web already) 
and I disagree completely that the "character" scenes added don't address (and fix) the issues that were present in the theatrical release.
many of the extra scenes involving Steppenwolf (and his conversations with ******) resolve every single "motivation" issue, or actually, "lack of motivation" issue - that was in the released version.
same is true of Cyborg. . those extra scenes are needed to give the character an arc, and really come into play in the 3rd act.
could it have been in a Cyborg film? yep, and I hope there will be one. but they do fit in here.
and the extra scenes with Flash work in the same way - they give Barry such an arc - especially how important a role he plays in both the 2nd act, and the 3rd.
(the 2nd act role was in the theatrical release, but in the Snyder cut, those scenes are done so differently, and make more sense).
so I think you view them as "extra" and not fitting, because you haven't finished the film yet. They are important because they are part of the arcs for the characters.
I loved it and watched it again today. . . likely will watch it a 3rd time next weekend too.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Mar 20, 2021 22:29:19 GMT -5
There is also one glaring plot hole having to do with Darkseid that I can't even come up with something in my head to essentially handwave away. I'd let it slide, but it has to essentially do with the motivation for the antagonist. I'm pretty surprised Snyder didn't catch that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2021 23:15:58 GMT -5
There is also one glaring plot hole having to do with Darkseid that I can't even come up with something in my head to essentially handwave away. I'd let it slide, but it has to essentially do with the motivation for the antagonist. I'm pretty surprised Snyder didn't catch that. what is that? that he can't recall what planet?
or something else?
put in spoiler tag, and I'll see if I can reason something out, since I didn't really notice anything in my 2 viewings.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Mar 20, 2021 23:27:55 GMT -5
There is also one glaring plot hole having to do with Darkseid that I can't even come up with something in my head to essentially handwave away. I'd let it slide, but it has to essentially do with the motivation for the antagonist. I'm pretty surprised Snyder didn't catch that. what is that? that he can't recall what planet?
or something else?
put in spoiler tag, and I'll see if I can reason something out, since I didn't really notice anything in my 2 viewings.
{Plot hole???}
Seems like Darkseid just forgot about Earth for 5K years. Yeah he's conquered thousands of planets, but Earth was the only place he was defeated. And he already knew the anti-life equation was there (we see this in the flashback battle scene), but the way it plays out is that Steppenwolf "discovers" it's presence on Earth. Darkseid acts like he's never been there before. Either Darkseid got amnesia or Diana got the story wrong. But that is just a huge stretch to try and fix what seems like a pretty big plot pitfall. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2021 1:04:50 GMT -5
ok. .my take on that:
{why its not a plot hole}
Darkseid attacked Earth well over 5,000 years ago (Diana is noted as being over 5,000 years old, and she was not with the Amazons at the time of Darkseid's attack).
so assume it's over 10,000 years ago, as it was well before the Atlanteans moved beneath the sea as well.
he was defeated and driven back by the forces protecting the planet. And he was gravely injured - so who knows how long it took him to recover.
so a long time has passed, and none of his Generals were with him on the planet he was attacking (no Desaad, no Steppenwolf, etc). . so in the years between he has been looking for the planet again, conquering planet after planet trying to find the coordinates for Earth.
but wait. . why couldn't he find Earth again? the Motherboxes were left here, could he not simply track them?
because after Darkseid was defeated, the Motherboxes "went to sleep" and could no longer be sensed. Explained by Diana to the team - they woke up when Superman died. . meaning they knew that without Superman, the planet would fall, and so called out - drawing Steppenwolf's attention.
so I can buy that he'd conquered so many worlds, he couldn't recall exactly which primitive planet had repelled him.
now. . as to why the moment Steppenwolf reports to Desaad that he's found a MotherBox, they don't KNOW that Earth is the "primitive" planet?
well. .that's also in character for Desaad - he's not going to disturb Darkseid until they know they have all 3 of them (and remember, neither Desaad or Steppenwolf were at the original battle. .they don't know the same planet with the Motherboxes is where Anti-life is located).
So that's why Desaad finally tells Darkseid about it - the only reason he brings in Darkseid before the 3rd Motherbox is found, is because steppenwolf tells him he's found Anti-life.
so. . . I dont' really see it as a plot hole.
SHOULD it be explained better than "Darkseid forgot since it was so long ago" ??
well. . yeah. But I didn't see it as a major plot hole.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Mar 21, 2021 6:23:29 GMT -5
"Darkseid forgot" seems to go against character to me, I mean not only is he a literal god but even if we decide he's just more fallible here than he is in the comics you'd think a guy would remember the only place where he got beaten no matter how long ago it was.
I've just started Part Five and have a few more observations: The editor here must have been sleeping a bit as there have now been two scenes that repeated dialogue. The first was the conversation with Desad, after gaining the first Motherbox Steppinwolf contacts Desad to update him on his status and ends with looking menacingly into the camera and saying that he's found captives and will rip the information from them, he then says the exact same thing when he finds the second and the animation is the same as well. Then in Part Four we get the Justice League assembling in the Batcave and Cyborg and the Flash quip about how cool it is, and then in Part Five after resurrecting Superman they return to the Batcave and once again The Flash and Cyborg quip about the Batcave as if they had never been there before. When you're stitching together a movie from multiple sources I suppose it's natural to happen but it just comes across as odd.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Mar 21, 2021 7:41:59 GMT -5
I've now completed the whole trek and the end battle was definitely worlds better than the original, and I liked the epilogue(even if it was longer than it needed to be) but as a whole I think my initial impression still stands; there are the bones of an excellent super hero movie here...but the end product ultimately didn't achieve that.
There were some truly excellent scenes, scenes far greater than anything we were shown in the theatrical cut and perhaps their existence makes this version slightly better, but for all that, as a whole it's still kind of a mess. Steppenwolf did get some development here, his conversation(the first time you see it) gives some much needed back story to him and a glimpse at his motivations, and the visual of Desad appearing through melting metal was fantastic...but it was just a glimpse and still didn't really elevate him that much beyond just being a generic bad guy doing generic bad guy things for generic bad guy reasons. But on the other hand the Mother Boxes are still just generic Macguffins, in fact because of the added back story we got on Steppenwolf and how many planets he's already conquered in order to try and get back into Darkseid's good graces, and the epilogue where Darseid says gather the armada they appear to be more useless than they were before. What is the unity? Why is it needed when hundreds of other planets have been brought to heel without it? There are no answers given and as their collection was the engine that drove much of the plot it gives the film a hollow feeling both in the original and here as well.
That's where the time really needed to be spent, tightening up that core and developing the villains better and with out that you don't really get a better movie. Ultimately I'll say that while the Snyder cut gave us more human moments with the heroes and especially developed the Flash and Cyborg much better than the theatrical cut did, with its extended run time and failure to fix what was truly holding the story back it isn't really what I'd call a better film than the theatrical cut.
It's a movie that makes me think, like I do with a lot of the big comic events of late, this creator really needed a strong editor. Someone to tell Snyder, "Man, these are some really fantastic ideas, I love where you're going with this! For now though, let's focus on this small part right here, who is this guy? Why does the audience care? Let's build on that first and develop those other ideas down the line."
So in the end, definitely worth watching if you're a fan of the Justice League characters, but in my eyes not a vast improvement of the original.
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