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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 12, 2023 20:43:01 GMT -5
Found it! The pre-Crisis Superman didn't have a memorable "rogue gallery". This was the most similar thing in the 1977: If I were Luthor or Brainiac I would feel embarrassed being in the same room with Toyman. And When you have to put The Prankster and Amalak (that I hadn't the faintest idea who he was, I had to Google it) between the "9 deadliest Superman foes" you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. But Terra-Man immediately bumps the cool factor of any group he joins. and i will brook no argument on this. Amen. |
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Post by Duragizer on Dec 14, 2023 23:34:48 GMT -5
It is, particularly in "Harley And Ivy" where Harley gets fed-up with Mr. J's treatment of her and runs off and teams up with Ivy. There is a lot of implied attraction between them (subtle enough that it would fly over the heads of most kids), and a parental bonus innuendo when Joker catches up with them and says "My, haven't you two been the busy little beavers", as only Mark Hamill could. This line apparently cut a little too close to the bone and was changed to "busy little bees" in later airings. I think that view's been embellished over the years, even though Dini would later take it in that direction. The chemistry between the two was much more heavily "girl power" friendship early on. What actually went down was that in the original series years (1992-1995), the famous "Harley and Ivy" episode paired them as friends and partners in crime after Joker fired Harley for a time. People try to "read into" their relationship in hindsight back then, but I think that's a little more fanboy than what was really going on. Harley then goes back to Joker, and Ivy herself gets married to a man in a later episode ("House and Garden"), and while not all was at it appears in that situation, it is very heavily implied she was happy being married to a man. And remember, pre-Ivy Pamela was engaged to Harvey Dent in one of the earliest episodes as well. I know you're not being deliberately insensitive, but we non-monosexual types tend to get annoyed by this type of reasoning. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2023 18:14:24 GMT -5
Duragizer - I deleted my original comments because I do not want them interpreted the way you suggested. Though you still have them copied in your post above, that is not even remotely where I was going with that. I literally just meant that I think Dini made the relationship specifically romantic later on than during the original seasons. The "fanboy" comment was intended regarding guys just lusting after the characters in that context, NOT about those of us who embrace them in an endearing same gender relationship. And to be clear, I belong very much to the latter category. I've also sent you a PM with some additional offline context, this subject is very personal for me and I believe you have a perception that could not be further from the truth.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 16, 2023 1:50:13 GMT -5
I feel like this post is not really assuming good faith on supercat's part. As you say yourself, he was clearly not trying to be deliberately insensitive, so why mention it? |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 16, 2023 9:35:05 GMT -5
Before this turns into something that it doesn't need to become, let me do my best to summarize both sides of this important discussion:
1. The Poison Ivy/Harley relationship was seemingly played up sexually more to appeal to sweaty fanboy desire than in a sincere attempt to meaningfully develop a bisexual relationship. The relationship does not seem to match what we understand of either character before or after.
2. Regardless of perceived intention, it was handled tastefully at times and thus became a meaningful representation in comicdom. Dismissing it can be unintentionally hurtful to some.
Hopefully, we can all agree to see both truths here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2023 9:55:34 GMT -5
Before this turns into something that it doesn't need to become, let me do my best to summarize both sides of this important discussion: 1. The Poison Ivy/Harley relationship was seemingly played up sexually more to appeal to sweaty fanboy desire than in a sincere attempt to meaningfully develop a bisexual relationship. The relationship does not seem to match what we understand of either character before or after. 2. Regardless of perceived intention, it was handled tastefully at times and thus became a meaningful representation in comicdom. Dismissing it can be unintentionally hurtful to some. Hopefully, we can all agree to see both truths here. Shaxper, I fully and respectfully appreciate your comments. I just want to go on record though saying I NEVER intended to suggest it was not a meaningful representation in comicdom. The question I was responding to was on WHEN it became that representation, and also for the record, I'm one of the people who it is a very meaningful representation for. I'm horrifed this has even become a question of it being dismissed, you have no idea how much. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 16, 2023 10:21:13 GMT -5
Thank you, Shax.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 16, 2023 10:38:46 GMT -5
Before this turns into something that it doesn't need to become, let me do my best to summarize both sides of this important discussion: 1. The Poison Ivy/Harley relationship was seemingly played up sexually more to appeal to sweaty fanboy desire than in a sincere attempt to meaningfully develop a bisexual relationship. The relationship does not seem to match what we understand of either character before or after. 2. Regardless of perceived intention, it was handled tastefully at times and thus became a meaningful representation in comicdom. Dismissing it can be unintentionally hurtful to some. Hopefully, we can all agree to see both truths here. Shaxper, I fully and respectfully appreciate your comments. I just want to go on record though saying I NEVER intended to suggest it was not a meaningful representation in comicdom. The question I was responding to was on WHEN it became that representation, and also for the record, I'm one of the people who it is a very meaningful representation for. I'm horrifed this has even become a question of it being dismissed, you have no idea how much. You're not on trial, my friend. I absolutely see the intention of your post, and I think Duragizer did too. I also understand his point that we should be aware how (though totally and completely unintended), the comment could have been hurtful to some. I don't think anyone here thinks that was your intention. Only last year, I had to explain to my amazing wife (who has love and respect for absolutely everyone) that saying someone "gyped" her can be hurtful to some. Clearly that was not her intention. We can all afford to be open to listening and learning. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2023 10:48:51 GMT -5
Shaxper, I fully and respectfully appreciate your comments. I just want to go on record though saying I NEVER intended to suggest it was not a meaningful representation in comicdom. The question I was responding to was on WHEN it became that representation, and also for the record, I'm one of the people who it is a very meaningful representation for. I'm horrifed this has even become a question of it being dismissed, you have no idea how much. You're not on trial, my friend. I absolutely see the intention of your post, and I think Duragizer did too. I also understand his point that we should be aware how (though totally and completely unintended), the comment could have been hurtful to some. I don't think anyone here thinks that was your intention. Only last year, I had to explain to my amazing wife (who has love and respect for absolutely everyone) that saying someone "gyped" her can be hurtful to some. Clearly that was not her intention. We can all afford to be open to listening and learning. I sent you a PM with more personal context, but I can't stay here with that kind of interpretation of my comment. It goes against everything my life stands for, and reasons more deeply personal I won't get into here. I know you meant well, and I want to see it that way since I think it is intended from a good place, but this is a hurtful situation and a growing one. For my good friends here, a number of you have my contact info. Just know that the true Supercat is a champion of every walk of life and always has been, and always will be. Peace. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 16, 2023 10:50:40 GMT -5
You're not on trial, my friend. I absolutely see the intention of your post, and I think Duragizer did too. I also understand his point that we should be aware how (though totally and completely unintended), the comment could have been hurtful to some. I don't think anyone here thinks that was your intention. Only last year, I had to explain to my amazing wife (who has love and respect for absolutely everyone) that saying someone "gyped" her can be hurtful to some. Clearly that was not her intention. We can all afford to be open to listening and learning. I sent you a PM with more personal context, but I can't stay here with that kind of interpretation of my comment. It goes against everything my life stands for, and reasons more deeply personal I won't get into here. I know you meant well, and I want to see it that way since I think it is intended from a good place, but this is a hurtful situation and a growing one. For my good friends here, a number of you have my contact info. Just know that the true Supercat is a champion of every walk of life and always has been, and always will be. Peace. If someone respectfully telling you that your comment can be seen as hurtful makes it impossible for you to stay here, then I guess you have to do what you have to do. But you will be missed, and I seriously hope you will reconsider. No one is asking you to see yourself as bad or intolerent. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2023 16:56:37 GMT -5
I'm back on temporarily to just provide a little more context and hopefully it will be of help to people here on this topic and in the future.
Making a comment not intending something, but someone feeling like you did, it happens and in many cases it can be resolved with "sorry, that's not what I meant" and hopefully you can explain. Because the absolute last thing I, and I'm sure many others here, would ever want is someone on a topic like this to ever feel personally hurt.
But nobody asked me. Duragizer did not ask me. Shaxper, you did not ask me. You both have jumped to an "evaluation" by your comments, and I question why you would do that. While I have explained several times my wording was around "when" not "if" the relationship became romantic, you jumped right to that's "hurtful" or "annoying". I'd genuinely like to know why, because if the conversation had been simply on "they make a great couple" or even "I'll always personally see them that way, even in those old episodes, regardless of the creative team intentions", well yeah, that's a whole different matter, and nothing but love and respect for those outlooks.
I think with due respect, you assumed I was going to a place that sadly sometimes people DO go to, and were ready with a response which believe it or not I AM highly sensitive to for reasons I keep dancing around here but people don't really need to know (and I sort of resent that it's been driving me to that). I am NOT that person you think was needing a coachable moment on this topic, and I would have had more respect if you had a conversation WITH me instead.
So I'm going to leave it at this. While I don't think this was handled well, I'm still going to publicly apologize to Duragizer because all that said per above, I still empathize with how he felt about it and I'd like him to know me as something else. Duragizer, my sincere apologies. I know the topic you speak of all too well, and I'm genuinely sorry to have evoked that with my post.
Shaxper, I'll let me comments sit, I hope you know I have a lot of respect for you but again I would have appreciated the respect to clarify my position and intentions versus the response that has now generated other feedback that I don't think was appropriate. Specifically the responses from Reptisaurus, zaku, and MDG are why I will not be returning, I have no respect for those individuals piling on.
I'm sorry to the community as well, I'm not very good at keeping my emotions in check at times, and the drama of my exits and returns is probably tiring to all (myself included). The truly good folks here though are some of the best I've ever encountered and the reason I keep wandering back in after a time. I wish everyone the best of holidays and continued awesomeness in 12 days of classic Christmas. Someone keep a candle lit in the window.
-SC
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 16, 2023 17:08:15 GMT -5
I'm back on temporarily to just provide a little more context and hopefully it will be of help to people here on this topic and in the future. Making a comment not intending something, but someone feeling like you did, it happens and in many cases it can be resolved with "sorry, that's not what I meant" and hopefully you can explain. Because the absolute last thing I, and I'm sure many others here, would ever want is someone on a topic like this to ever feel personally hurt. But nobody asked me. Duragizer did not ask me. Shaxper, you did not ask me. You both have jumped to an "evaluation" by your comments, and I question why you would do that. While I have explained several times my wording was around "when" not "if" the relationship became romantic, you jumped right to that's "hurtful" or "annoying". I'd genuinely like to know why, because if the conversation had been simply on "they make a great couple" or even "I'll always personally see them that way, even in those old episodes, regardless of the creative team intentions", well yeah, that's a whole different matter, and nothing but love and respect for those outlooks. I think with due respect, you assumed I was going to a place that sadly sometimes people DO go to, and were ready with a response which believe it or not I AM highly sensitive to for reasons I keep dancing around here but people don't really need to know (and I sort of resent that it's been driving me to that). I am NOT that person you think was needing a coachable moment on this topic, and I would have had more respect if you had a conversation WITH me instead. So I'm going to leave it at this. While I don't think this was handled well, I'm still going to publicly apologize to Duragizer because all that said per above, I still empathize with how he felt about it and I'd like him to know me as something else. Duragizer, my sincere apologies. I know the topic you speak of all too well, and I'm genuinely sorry to have evoked that with my post. Shaxper, I'll let me comments sit, I hope you know I have a lot of respect for you but again I would have appreciated the respect to clarify my position and intentions versus the response that has now generated other feedback that I don't think was appropriate. Specifically the responses from Reptisaurus, zaku, and MDG are why I will not be returning, I have no respect for those individuals piling on. I'm sorry to the community as well, I'm not very good at keeping my emotions in check at times, and the drama of my exits and returns is probably tiring to all (myself included). The truly good folks here though are some of the best I've ever encountered and the reason I keep wandering back in after a time. I wish everyone the best of holidays and continued awesomeness in 12 days of classic Christmas. Someone keep a candle lit in the window. -SC At this point, I think we have seriously derailed someone else's thread and would suggest that any further discussion and clarification can be done privately. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 16, 2023 20:01:34 GMT -5
A few days ago, I read JLA #111, where Ivy is a member of the Injustice Gang. It’s her fifth appearance. She has a ray gun that enhances plant growth. She mentions that Chronos made it for her. Because it somehow makes more sense that a physicist who specializes in time travel would know more about botany than a female criminal with a plant motif that we know very little about, I guess? I mean, she couldn’t possibly be a botanist herself who could create a plant gun without help from a physicist super-villain. 🙄
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Post by Duragizer on Dec 17, 2023 19:31:28 GMT -5
I feel like this post is not really assuming good faith on supercat's part. As you say yourself, he was clearly not trying to be deliberately insensitive, so why mention it? I just wanted Supercat to be careful with his wording, because it can lead to misunderstandings. Obviously, I failed at clarity myself, and now Supercat's gone. I didn't want that. I feel sick for driving him off. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 17, 2023 20:08:39 GMT -5
Well, shit, that turned weird. Sorry!
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